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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2006, 09:17 AM
John's Avatar
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Which starter DSLR

Graham (Glsammy) advised me that the Canon EOS 400D together with the Sigma 50-500 is possibly the best combination to invest in as a starter DSLR set up. It will be mainly used for Bird Photography.

I can't afford the more expensive set up's but the prices that the Canon and Sigma appear to be are within my price range.

I am hopefully cashing in an old pension scheme to pay of a large debt I have. Once that is done I will still have some left over, enough to cover the set up I have mentioned.

What do you folks think. Is this the best set up or do you think that there are others to consider.

Remember, I don't know the first thing about DSLR photography as all my photography is via my digiscopeing set up.

I look forward to your replies.

John
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Old 09-11-2006, 09:26 AM
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Re: Which starter DSLR

I can't quote for the lens (which is on my want list) but I have had a canon 400D for a couple of weeks now and I can say that I have been very impressed with it.

I would be interested to know about your digi scoping setup as I have a Nikon 4500 in semi retirement and would not mind having a go at combining that with a scope, if I get results half as good as yours I will be more than happy.
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Old 09-11-2006, 09:47 AM
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Re: Which starter DSLR

Quote:
Originally Posted by speckled wood
I can't quote for the lens (which is on my want list) but I have had a canon 400D for a couple of weeks now and I can say that I have been very impressed with it.

I would be interested to know about your digi scoping setup as I have a Nikon 4500 in semi retirement and would not mind having a go at combining that with a scope, if I get results half as good as yours I will be more than happy.
Hi SW

That seems to be another good recommendation for the 400D. Any others that can be recommended?

I have two CP 4500's combined with a Swarovski 80STS HD scope. The adaptor I use is my old KOWA 824 adaptor. All I have done is cut out a thin aluminium tube to insert into the adaptor and it slides over the scope eyepiece just right. I use a Jessops cable release to take the photos with. I never use the auto settings but have set up my settings based an Andy Brights settings and they work fine for me. I hope they help you get to use your 4500 to its full potential.

Here are his settings.

The camera settings used for digiscoping are one of the most frequent requests that I receive, so I thought it would be an idea to state my own and to invite others to share their own settings with the forum.

It would be understandable to assume that every digiscoper would use the same settings.... this isn't the case and there seems to be several ways to reach the same goal. The following settings are for the major digiscoping cameras, the Nikon cp990, cp995 and the cp4500.... some of these may be applicable to other Nikon coolpix cameras and maybe cameras from other manufacturers.

First off, it's important to use your camera in a manual or semi-automatic mode.... programme and auto modes can often give you inappropriate exposure settings for bird photography, maybe giving you a slower shutter-speed in preference to a higher aperture value... the latter is totally irrelevant for digiscoping, extra depth of field is unlikely and far less important than freezing any movement.

Full Manual:
You choose shutter-speed and aperture value....you can judge if the photo will be over/under exposed by the linear exposure meter.

Aperture Priority:
You set the aperture value (lowest available setting is vital) and the camera works out what shutter-speed is appropriate for the given light

Shutter-Priority:
Where you set the shutter-speed and the camera sets the appropriate aperture value for the given light.
I use full manual and tend to under-expose slightly by choosing a slightly faster shutter-speed than the camera recommends to freeze bird/camera movement as much as possible... Correct exposure is often subjective but blur isn't, anyway under-exposure can be rescued in Photoshop, though over-exposure is very difficult to rectify.
Aperture priority is a fairly reliable mode and may be the best bet when the bird is active and you need to get a shot off quickly.

Focus modes:
There is always some debate about what mode produces the sharpest images. I have tried them all over the last 3 1/2 years and still come to the conclusion the 'Macro' (flower symbol) produce the best images. 'Infinity' is handy if you have obstructions (branches/reeds and similar) between the camera and subject as you simply focus on the subject until sharp and the camera will take the shot without trying to find a focus lock itself.
If you do utilise the latter, try to do it with the camera in 'manual focus' with the distance set to infinity rather than using the main 'Infinity' (mountain symbol) focus setting, this seems to give slightly improved results.

In the actual camera menus:

White Balance:
Leave it on Auto, ... you can have a play around with the White Balance preset if you have a white object in view for the camera to take a reading, though not really worth the bother as you can rectify most problems in Photoshop.

Metering:
Now this is quite important as it determines where the camera takes its light reading of the image from, so as to correctly expose the image... Best to ignore matrix metering as it can often lead to the wrong exposure for a small bird against a light/dark background, though if the bird dominates the view it o.k. Spot Metering is useful as the camera will only take a light reading from the centre spot (hopefully where the subject is)... exposing the subject correctly but to hell with the background.
An in-between metering mode is 'Centre Weighted' or 'Partial Spot'..... The camera will concentrate on exposing for the centre spot but doesn't totally ignore the lighting of the background.
Finally, and in combination with a focus mode we will get to later, we have 'Spot AF Area' metering. basically spot metering but at different points around the image. I tend to use this for most of my shots, that's why my backgrounds look too dark or bright!

Continuous:
Fairly straight forward in that you can choose to shoot one shot at a time or a series of shots (about 6 for full size images on the cp4500). Handy to take a burst of shots in quick succession in that you're more likely to capture a good pose with an active bird (diving Ducks)... just delete the oooo ones afterwards. There is a price to be paid for using 'Continuous mode' as you will have a fairly long wait while these images are written to the memory card (feels like an eternity if the bird is suddenly posing beautifully).
You can take a single shot whilst in 'Continuous mode', but the write-to-card time is slightly longer than if the image had been taken in 'Single mode'.
There are other multi-shot shooting options, but these can only be used when using lower quality image settings.

BSS:
Nikon's amazing feature for getting sharp images with shaky hands, unfortunately not much use for birds that are moving. The camera keeps taking photos as long as you have the shutter button pressed down, you take your finger off and it will only save what it regards as the sharpest image. A moving subject will totally throw it off, but it can be used for static birds.

Image Adjustment:
This controls the contrast in the final image. Best left on normal, though I prefer low contrast on the cp4500 to help keep blown-out highlights to a minimum. You can always boost contrast in-computer with far more control.

Saturation:
Best left on normal setting. Auto settings on any of the image adjustment controls can leave you at the mercy of the camera's 'brain'.

Sharpening:
See above.

Image Quality:
Always on 'Fine'. This saves the image at a low jpeg compression ratio.... you can't really see any jpeg artefacts in the results. 'Hi' will save the image as an uncompressed Tiff, so this is the ultimate for quality but you'll be waiting 20+ secs before the image is written to the memory card and you can take another shot.

Image Size:
Keep on 2272x1704, which is the maximum size. May be tempting for 35mm people to use 2272x1520 for 3:2 format images rather than 4:3... but a waste of time and pixels as you can crop to 3:2 in-computer.

Focus Options: (3 Sub-menus)

AF Area Mode:
This refers to the Nikon AF zone system that presents five focus targets that you can choose from, in auto the camera will focus on the zone that has an object closest to the camera... in manual you can choose which zone the camera will focus on (via the mini joystick). This handy for 'nice' compositions with the bird off-centre.
You may have guessed by now that the 'Spot AF Area' metering mode that I mentioned earlier is linked to these focus targets... you will get spot metering over the active target (active target is highlighted red on the screen).
I'd recommend using 'AF Area Mode' in manual combined with the 'Spot AF Area' metering mode... if nothing else it will help the camera focus on what you want it to rather than some twig in the bottom of the image (even that's not foolproof).

Auto-Focus Mode:
Absolutely vital to switch it to 'Single AF', seems to be the default setting these days.... but check it if your camera is constantly searching for something to lock onto when you're in a manual/semi-auto mode.

Focus Confirmation:
Tricky one.... highlights the area in-focus on your screen, so you can focus your scope and know when the subject is in-focus because it 'twinkles' (for want of a better word). It can make your eyes go a bit funny on the older Nikons, better on the newer ones. Not totally reliable and I find my own judgement of what is in perfect focus to be more reliable on many occasions, so have it switched off. If I go through a rough patch of 'iffy' photos I'll switch it on again in desperation.... but usually switch it off again when I realise something else was to blame for the 'iffy' pics.
Focus Confirmation can make the view look very 'bitty' when used with an Extend-a-view sunshade2x loupe.

Hope that helps.

John
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Old 09-11-2006, 12:15 PM
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Re: Which starter DSLR

Thanks John. I and no doubt many others are looking forwards to seeing the pictures when you get your DSLR.
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Old 09-11-2006, 12:17 PM
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Re: Which starter DSLR

Hi John,

I've had my 400D for a few weeks now and am very pleased with it. Starter DSLRs are broadly similar in terms of spec, but perhaps the bigger consideration is lens range and availability. For me, that ruled out the new Sony and the Olympus E500. Personally I don't think you can go wrong with the 400D.

In terms of lenses I think there are 3 that are very popular with bird photographers; the Bigma 50-500mm, the Canon 100-400mm IS and the Canon 400mm prime. Obviously the latter 2 require a Canon body. Kerso quoted me around £880 for the 100-400 and £720 for the 400 prime. I went for the 400 prime and am very happy indeed with it. It's much lighter than the other 2 and so can be hand held quite easily. Being zooms, the other 2 have more versatility but not quite the image quality of the prime. So it's all about trade-offs.

Matt
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Old 09-11-2006, 12:27 PM
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Re: Which starter DSLR

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_xyz
Hi John,

I've had my 400D for a few weeks now and am very pleased with it. Starter DSLRs are broadly similar in terms of spec, but perhaps the bigger consideration is lens range and availability. For me, that ruled out the new Sony and the Olympus E500. Personally I don't think you can go wrong with the 400D.
Matt
I think that sigma is now doing "Four Thirds" fittings for Olympus so that might now be an option, however the Canon 400D does offer a lot for the money so as Matt says I don't think that you wil go far wrong with the 400D and it may also be that there are a few other users that will be prepared to show you their setups so that you can work out what is likely to be best for you. I think ultimately that "hands on" will be the best way to determine this.
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Old 09-11-2006, 12:31 PM
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Re: Which starter DSLR

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_xyz
Hi John,

I've had my 400D for a few weeks now and am very pleased with it. Starter DSLRs are broadly similar in terms of spec, but perhaps the bigger consideration is lens range and availability. For me, that ruled out the new Sony and the Olympus E500. Personally I don't think you can go wrong with the 400D.

In terms of lenses I think there are 3 that are very popular with bird photographers; the Bigma 50-500mm, the Canon 100-400mm IS and the Canon 400mm prime. Obviously the latter 2 require a Canon body. Kerso quoted me around £880 for the 100-400 and £720 for the 400 prime. I went for the 400 prime and am very happy indeed with it. It's much lighter than the other 2 and so can be hand held quite easily. Being zooms, the other 2 have more versatility but not quite the image quality of the prime. So it's all about trade-offs.

Matt
Thanks for that matt

It seems that Grahams choice of camera is the right one. Regarding lens, I take your point. I think for me though the versatility factor would come into it more. The DSLR for me would be the camera to use for images that are too close for digiscoping so the zoom factor on a lens would give me the freedom to go for birds within the area between me and the marginal digiscoping line.

I don't know anything about the 100-400 lens. How does that compare with the 50-500 in both weight and clarity of image. What would be the difference with their extreme ranges at either end of the scale. In other words how far away from the camera would an image be acheivable at the 50 with the Sigma, 100 with the Canon at the lower range and 500 with the Sigma and 400 with the Canon at the extreme range.

John
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Old 09-11-2006, 12:45 PM
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Re: Which starter DSLR

Both the Canon 100-400 and Bigma 50-500 will produce very high quality images. The advantage of the Canon is that it has image stabilization so can be hand held more easily. The advantage of the Bigma is its extra focal length. The Canon 400D has a crop factor of 1.6 so the stated focal lengths of lenses have to be multiplied by 1.6 to get the effective focal length (in order to compare with lenses on compacts and film SLRs). This means the Canon has an effective focal length of 160-640 and the Bigma an impressive 80-800. Since you're used to digiscoping you might appreciate the extra focal length of the Bigma. It is a heavy lens though so hand holding would take some practice (and good light).

In terms of how close to your subject you need to be this is very difficult to say. The bottom line is that you still need to be quite close to a small bird to get it to a reasonable size in an image with any of these lenses. That is probably the biggest difference you'll notice compared to digiscoping. A sparrow sized bird would need to be within around 20 feet to prevent it being too small in an image (without cropping). That would be my rough estimate, maybe slightly less with the Bigma. That's at full zoom. All bird photography will require full zooom though unless you're planning on close-ups of swans or geese. That's why I don't find the 400mm prime too restrictive, since I only use it for bird and other wildlife photography (where being too close to your subject is not a problem I ever have )

sorry for the ramble

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Old 09-11-2006, 01:26 PM
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Re: Which starter DSLR

there is also the little bigma 170-500 which isnt a bad lens - its not as good as the bigma admittedly but it is also 300+ notes cheaper. Image quality isnt much different but the foccusing is not as quiet or as fast. I am certainly happy with mine - there are reviews of both of these in the reviews section

two other sigma lens which may be worth consideration are the 135-400 and the 80-400 OS the latter being arround 300 notes less than the canon 100-400 which makes it the cheapest image stabilised lens - I have no personal experience of these two how ever.
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Old 09-11-2006, 01:36 PM
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Re: Which starter DSLR

Quote:
Originally Posted by eeyore
there is also the little bigma 170-500 which isnt a bad lens - its not as good as the bigma admittedly but it is also 300+ notes cheaper. Image quality isnt much different but the foccusing is not as quiet or as fast. I am certainly happy with mine - there are reviews of both of these in the reviews section

two other sigma lens which may be worth consideration are the 135-400 and the 80-400 OS the latter being arround 300 notes less than the canon 100-400 which makes it the cheapest image stabilised lens - I have no personal experience of these two how ever.
Have you any images in the Gallery taken with the 170-500 lens for me to look at as I hadn't thought of that one.

John
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