Can't seem to cut Raw -- Help

[turkeyneck]

Ok, got my new camera and I'm using the software that came with it.
So......canon 7d with Digital Photo Professional software.
I have never shot in RAW and have started now or rather I'm shooting combined Jpeg and RAW images. The massive problem I'm having is I can't get any where near the image sharpness/quality with the RAW image compared with that of the Jpeg. The Jpegs are what I'd expect pin sharp but I've spent hours trying to replicate with the RAW images and they all seem soft in comparison. In fact, I don't even need the duplicate image to compare them against, you can just see it plain as mud.
Has anyone any helpful suggestions before I throw myself or my computer out of the window in frustration. Spending more time in post production than being out there with my new camera! Argh!!!

[Jim Ford]

Simple - your JPEG files are sharpened by default within the camera by the JPEG engine, whilst raw files aren't (but see below).

Raw files are - raw, just the greyscale data captured by the photosites on the sensor. There's not even any colour data. In recognition that _all_ digitally captured images are inherently unsharp, camera manufacturers may apply a degree of sharpening in the raw capture. How much, the manufacturers don't reveal and users are unsure - there's no way of telling.

I'll repeat a very important part of the above. All digitally captured images are inherently unsharp. It's simple physics and unavoidable.

Now, you can take the raw data and process it in a raw converter when colour is assigned to the data. There usually is also the option to apply a degree of sharpening. The converted image - JPEG, TIFF etc. may be further sharpened in (say) Photoshop. It's very important to note that the degree of sharpening an image needs depends on the medium on which it is to be displayed and also the final size it is to be displayed. This is why agencies don't often want sharpened images, because it's the customer that will make the final decision on the amount required.

BTW. 'raw' is not an acronym, so it shouldn't be capitalised. 'JPEG' and 'TIFF' are acronyms, so should be capitalised. It may be mentioned by others that 'raw' is now commonly capitalised, to which I would reply that it is commonly wrong!
;^)

Jim

[turkeyneck]

Hi Jim, thanks that explains a lot. So the software that came with my camera will only allow me to sharpen to a degree, to sharpen further and get it up to JPEG standard I need to purchase different software to convert and sharpen the image further? If this is so, what would you recommend as I don't really want to go way in depth manipulating images. I need something pretty basic, novice friendly and cheap.
Cheers Lee

[turkeyneck]

I'm now answering my own threads
Just read the thread 'Which RAW processing program?' This makes more sense to me now, after what Jim had written.
I've downloaded GIMP2 and UFRaw and after a lot of practice I am a happier man that is apart from it's now 03:00hrs and need my bed.................computers, huh, who'd have 'em?
Thank you for making it so much clearer to me

[Gaza]

I cant see why you are unable to bring your raw photo's to the sharpness required, using DPP.
Never had a problem with it myself. In fact, it is easy to over sharpen, if you are not careful.

[MeadsMan]

Hi Turkeyneck,when I got my 400D and started shooting in RAW,it used to drive me nuts,that nothing looked sharp ect,I was getting better results from my compact.The truth is you have to make adjustments to RAW images to get the best out of them,if you look on Utube there are tutorials for using Canons DPP,if your not after any fancy manipultion,you should be able to do everything you want in Canons DPP and Zoom Browser software.Keep at it,and experiment with Canons software,press control and T to bring up the adjustments window in Canons DPP,all the basic things you need are right there.Good Luck.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Jim Ford

BTW. 'raw' is not an acronym, so it shouldn't be capitalised. 'JPEG' and 'TIFF' are acronyms, so should be capitalised. It may be mentioned by others that 'raw' is now commonly capitalised, to which I would reply that it is commonly wrong!
;^)

Jim

*pedant mode on*

While jim is technically correct that JPEG and TIFF (and GiF, PSD etc for that matter) are acronyms and would be correctly capitalised if talking about the format (e.g "I prefer to take JPEG files because they require less processing"), if you are talking about the actual files themselves then they are file extensions and should have a dot in front and not be capitalised (e.g " I took over 300 .jpeg s at the zoo last week" )

Raw is as Jim says not an acronym and therefore should not be capitalised, but it should still have the dot in front if talking about the files themselves. ( eg " I like shooting raw files because the quality is better, I took 400 .raw s at the weekend"

This is complicated by the fact that raw files shot from a nikon are more propperly .nef files and NEF is an acronym

It is also arguable that other raw formats ought to be prefaced with the makers name , which has a capital as a propper name, e.g Canon-raw , when talking about the format, but not when talking about the file itself

*Pedant mode off*

[Wizmatt]

Canons Zoombrowser EX offers sharpening and cropping facilities. I prefer to use zoombrowser for sharpening as it has the option of unsharp mask sharpening which can control 'unwanted noise' from sharpening that you can do in DDP.

[rogpow]

Originally Posted by eeyore

*pedant mode on*

This is complicated by the fact that raw files shot from a nikon are more propperly .nef files and NEF is an acronym

It is also arguable that other raw formats ought to be prefaced with the makers name , which has a capital as a propper name, e.g Canon-raw , when talking about the format, but not when talking about the file itself

*Pedant mode off*

Old Chines proverb says "He who gets pedantic about correct grammar should make sure he spells "proper" and "properly" properly.

And Old Chinese should also check spelling of Chinese

[Geoff F]

I suppose the first question is 'Do you really need to use Raw'?

Yes, I exclusively use it and you can get better results if you edit it correctly. But that does take quite a bit of extra time and your file sizes are considerably larger.

For average use, most people can't see any improvement on Jpeg at the highest setting.

But let's surmise that you want absolute perfection from your photos and are prepared to do a little bit of extra work in processing. And you are proficient in advanced editing or are willing to spend some time on a fast learning curve.

Jim has already explained the technical side of Jpeg versus Raw in excellent detail. Actually, on the occasions where I use Jpeg, I turn off all the auto 'enhancements' and produce 'raw' Jpegs which I then process to my own requirements.

Now comes the difficult parts of making sure that you get the best out of Raw. And this may well cause you to consider returning to Jpeg; but if you do eventually master editing from Raw data you won't want to return to Jpeg.

The first hurdle is what Raw Converter do you use? The basic DPP Converter will do adequate conversions to start with, although you may not notice the full Raw benefits.

Currently, after considering the cheaper options, I am using the free Raw Therapee version 3 Conversion software which is capable of producing excellent results; but this is a temperamental programme which takes a lot of practice to keep it 'in a good mood' otherwise it goes into a huff and keeps crashing!

However, since I have been using Raw Therapee I have noticed a dramatic improvement in the quality of my finished photos compared with the basic converters. But the quality alternatives are a bit pricey. Although I will probably get something more reliable when I have more time.

The next decision is what format to use for editing? I can't see much logic in photographing Raw then converting to Jpeg which loses much of the Raw benefits. I always convert to 16 bit Tiff, assuming your computer and software can cope with these large files.

The next problems concern how you will edit the converted files, and we could go on about this all night! But basically I would suggest doing a brightness tweak with Curves and a final sharpen with Unsharp Mask.

But rather than ramble on, I will find some links to editing tutorials for you to read at your leisure. All this stuff will take quite a lot of learning, although you are probably brighter than an old Eleven Plus failure like me!

If you do stick at reading and learning all of the available information you will eventually produce professional results - or go mad!

Cambridge in Colour always has plenty of good advice, although it can go from beginner to advanced in a couple of sentences http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials.htm

Photo Net also has good advice and have just updated their introductory pages http://photo.net/learn/

Ron Bigelow is highly recommended although you may find his tutorials a bit advanced to start with http://www.ronbigelow.com/articles/articles.htm

There are several others which I have found helpful but it might be 'overkill' if I add too much in one go.