Photographing uncooperative moths

Trik · #1 (**permalink**) 30-10-2011, 04:10 PM

I have just spent the larger part of today trying to photograph a moth that will not open its wings fully! I know that it does rest with wings open, as it was like that in the trap. I have tried everything that I can think of : blowing on it gently in the hope that it would open for less wind resistance; cooling it down; warming it up; in the dark; in strong light. Maybe it doesn`t like being on a vertical surface, or the surface itself (a piece of silver birch bark). Can anyone think of something else to try? (except killing and pinning the little blighter!) I think it is an Autumnal Moth, but until it opens fully, ID is difficult.

Many thanks
Trik

MetalMoth · #2 (**permalink**) 30-10-2011, 04:33 PM

To be honest with you I give up pretty quickly when trying to photograph moths which either won't open their wings or are being too active. I release them ASAP as the moths welfare is my main concern and comes above getting an ID or photograph. So my advice would be to let it go. I think it is a little cruel to keep poking and prodding a moth to get a photo or ID. Sometimes you just have to accept that some moths won't behave and let them go and hope you get another one another night. I would not kill it and pin it as I don't think that is necessary in modern day mothing anymore. I am sure you will catch another one another time!

Trik · #3 (**permalink**) 30-10-2011, 05:01 PM

I don`t chivvy the moths very much and use a soft artist`s paintbrush to...coax them, I think is the right description. I usually put it on a piece of bark flat on the table and put a clear container over it. As soon as it settles down, I prop the bark upright and usually get my shots. This one is very feisty, though, so I will let it go tonight.

Trik

Julian Howe · #4 (**permalink**) 30-10-2011, 06:02 PM

I had a few of the closed wing variety the other night, they are probably November Moth agg, mine were! Best not to poke them around too much.

Jason Green · #5 (**permalink**) 30-10-2011, 07:23 PM

Riiiiiight.

I doubt raising a wing would be painful - probably comparable to someone just lifting someone's arm. It's a just hinging appendage, after all! Just be aware of it's natural arch of movement.

At the very pinnacle of conservation, is accurate identification. To that end, there's no 'just to make an identification'. Anyone uttering this, probably isn't thinking scientifically. In my mind, no-one should go interferring in the lives of moths in a way that attracts and traps them for several hours away from their food-source and prohibiting mating - then be too fearful of even touching them. You've already interferred!! I agree with trapping, for the record.

As much as moths seem to be mostly do-able photographically, it's probably worth mentioning the plates included in the literature are often based on specimens. In the past month or so I've spoken to several conservational professionals - those who have written keys, conservationists, and an 'Educational Officer' who is involved in teaching kids and leading local conservational work. Not a single person complained on hearing of my collecting (no moths). They were just interested in the records. You know, conservation. The study of natural history is a science. People are free to approach the subject in any way they feel they can - but musn't ignore the need for precise IDs.

Has no-one considered the far-greater environmental impact of the modern consumer-demand for digital cameras? The world-wide sourcing of parts, digging/mining for chemicals, Co2-emissions in the factory production, sea-based transportation of assembled models, creation of batteries and all the road-based transport transitionally? Even worse, are the occasions when people spend hours searching the internet for other, often less reliable, methods of making IDs in such cases. Just think of the additional expulsion of Co2 used during this.

Actually, wouldn't it be funny if we were all hands-off. Just think how many insects would dissappear off the radar if we couldn't do anything but look at those on the very tops of leaves - no contact of any kind? We'd end-up back to where we were in the 1600s.

I'm not singling anyone out here, but after all this to say it's best not to even lift a wing?! Priceless!

Anyway, must go - I still need to substantiate the ID I've made on a barkfly upon studying the hind-wing. Looks like it may be new to SE England.

shenk1 · #6 (**permalink**) 30-10-2011, 07:34 PM

Just take the batteries out of the camera and start doing something else and it will immediately open its wings to the perfect position for ID/photography and only close them when you re-insert the batteries

I know - it happens all the time

Jason Green · #7 (**permalink**) 30-10-2011, 07:51 PM

...well, that solution's a whole lot simpler!

Trik · #8 (**permalink**) 30-10-2011, 08:06 PM

I have a moth book (now out of print), where most of the illustrations are photos of pinned specimens. From a purely practical viewpoint, I have found it extremely difficult to ID using this book, as - almost without exception - they are brown, having lost most of their colours, nor are they in a position that one would normally see in a live specimen. Indeed, it was only when I started seeing them alive and photographing them, that I realised just how colourful and beautifully-marked moths can be. Still, my interest in them is not scientific but purely aesthetic.

Shenk1 : Oh, yes! As soon as the light went and photography without using flash was impossible, it opened its wings...

Trik

MetalMoth · #9 (**permalink**) 30-10-2011, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Green

Riiiiiight.

I doubt raising a wing would be painful - probably comparable to someone just lifting someone's arm. It's a just hinging appendage, after all! Just be aware of it's natural arch of movement.

At the very pinnacle of conservation, is accurate identification. To that end, there's no 'just to make an identification'. Anyone uttering this, probably isn't thinking scientifically. In my mind, no-one should go interferring in the lives of moths in a way that attracts and traps them for several hours away from their food-source and prohibiting mating - then be too fearful of even touching them. You've already interferred!! I agree with trapping, for the record.

As much as moths seem to be mostly do-able photographically, it's probably worth mentioning the plates included in the literature are often based on specimens. In the past month or so I've spoken to several conservational professionals - those who have written keys, conservationists, and an 'Educational Officer' who is involved in teaching kids and leading local conservational work. Not a single person complained on hearing of my collecting (no moths). They were just interested in the records. You know, conservation. The study of natural history is a science. People are free to approach the subject in any way they feel they can - but musn't ignore the need for precise IDs.

Has no-one considered the far-greater environmental impact of the modern consumer-demand for digital cameras? The world-wide sourcing of parts, digging/mining for chemicals, Co2-emissions in the factory production, sea-based transportation of assembled models, creation of batteries and all the road-based transport transitionally? Even worse, are the occasions when people spend hours searching the internet for other, often less reliable, methods of making IDs in such cases. Just think of the additional expulsion of Co2 used during this.

Actually, wouldn't it be funny if we were all hands-off. Just think how many insects would dissappear off the radar if we couldn't do anything but look at those on the very tops of leaves - no contact of any kind? We'd end-up back to where we were in the 1600s.

I'm not singling anyone out here, but after all this to say it's best not to even lift a wing?! Priceless!

Anyway, must go - I still need to substantiate the ID I've made on a barkfly upon studying the hind-wing. Looks like it may be new to SE England.

Well I did not say it would be painful to the moth but I don't think it is very good for it to have someone trying to constantly pry open its wings for a photograph. If you can get its wings open a bit to see the patterning and ID it then why do you need to try and get a photo? I do pull up the wings of certain species to check ID and will try and see a moths wings to ID it but for me the most important thing is the ID not the photo. So to keep a moth longer than necessary for a photo is not too good in my opinion. I agree that getting a photo helps confirm ID and get it checked but this is only really important when you suspect you may have a rare moth or an important record for an area. If it is a common one then you can try and get a photo another night with a more cooperative specimen.

I do agree with you that accurate ID is important, but surely we should also be thinking about the moths welfare too. If you have trapped a moth and have been keeping it for quite a while to try and get a photo and are having no luck I think you have to at some point realise you must release it and try again another time. That was my main point. Not that you should not try and get an ID, you always should if you have a captive moth. But if it just for the photo then let it go.

You were clearly singling my post out so please don't say you aren't. I have taken no offence but I find it a bit ridiculous for you to claim you aren't replying to my post!

I also did not say it is best not to lift a wing. I was referring to the efforts being made to get a photo. Lifting a moths wing does not really help in getting a photo when it simply keeps its wings closed. The opening post seemed to have tried all means of getting a photo. I have said before on these forums that I regularly lift wings to ID things accurately (e.g. Smoky Wainscot). I am not saying you should never do this. However I would urge caution in playing around with moths simply to get photos. I agree a photo helps confirm an ID but sometimes its just not possible.

Also in reply to your point about collections. I agree with collections. I have some myself, water beetles and dung beetles. However I think moths can be done now without making your own personal collection. So you dont need to kill them. The work has been done in the past so we don't have to kill moths now. Much like we don't have to kill butterflies anymore.

MetalMoth · #10 (**permalink**) 30-10-2011, 08:16 PM

I should also say I could have worded my initial post a bit better. I kept on saying 'get a photo and ID' when really I should have said get a photo. I am in favour of moving wings etc to get an ID. You have to do it with certain species. For me the ID comes first, photo second. If I cannot photograph it then I let it go.