Photographing uncooperative moths

[Jason Green]

Originally Posted by Trik

I have a moth book (now out of print), where most of the illustrations are photos of pinned specimens. From a purely practical viewpoint, I have found it extremely difficult to ID using this book, as - almost without exception - they are brown, having lost most of their colours, nor are they in a position that one would normally see in a live specimen.

That's the difficulty of using cross-comparisons between methods. Back then there was little in the way of widespread photography so most IDs would have had to be based on specimens. To that end, the book was perfect. Now, digital cameras are in proliferation and as such field-guides come in and replicate the users' representation of their catches - field-photos for field-photos. The big downside to this? The original collectors had access to the hind-wings, the ventral surface of the forewing, and genitalia. They could capably approach anything. Now, as times have changed and we now have, in the main, photographs, people say 'Agg' and leave it. We have a great many that are becoming obscure, thought of as impossible, decreasing in range - and why? Partly because our tool has changed, I suspect. How ironic, that technology is supposed to improve things!

Plates are still needed though, because however good photos are - when it comes to species-complexes a fine comparison between particular markings are required. This can best be represented by a black-and-white drawing, ignoring loud or distracting colours/patterns asides from this.

Glad you got your ID sorted. All I ask is that when we intervene in nature, as is unavoidable when we wish to properly record, that we note the usual catch stuff and pass the record onto the relevant recorder.

Have a nice evening!

[Jason Green]

Sorry MetalMoth - my response actually really was to a general air, to a few responses in apprehension of others I would expect.

I acknowledge all your dues as you rightfully state. Still friends?

[MetalMoth]

I see. There was never any offence taken by myself. I can see that I did not explain myself as clearly as I could of in my original post. I was hasty as I was keen for the thread starter to realise that they should not keep the moth longer than necessary.

[Trik]

Just to clarify matters : nowhere did I say that I was trying to move the moth`s wings, either up or down. I was waiting (and waiting!) for it to open naturally. My use of the paintbrush is to gently encourage it off the eggbox or out of a container.

Trik

[Julian Howe]

I must admit your original post on this thread Jason, came across as rather condescending, whether you meant this or not I don't know, but I can easily understand why you got the response you did from MetalMoth.

I wasn't offended, but was trying to say don't handle the moths more than you have to, I think lifting a wing for an id is fine, don't think it's that vital to prod it around just to get a photo.

I find the most stressful thing about mothing, is trying to release them so they don't become breakfast for birds. I have a large overgrown garden, so I try to vary where I release the moths, but outwitting an eager robin is a bit tricky though

Cheers,

Julian

[MetalMoth]

Trik - Thanks for clearing that up. I did not mean to imply you were messing around with the moth.

Julian - I agree with you about the release. I trapped down in Dorset for 3 months this summer and we had a group of sparrows that always feasted on our moth catch. We varied where we released them but in the end we had to accept quite a few would be eaten. It was sad.

[earthdragon64]

I keep the moths I trap potted up in my cool, shady garage, then release them after dark. That way they don't get eaten by birds, maybe just the odd bat, but I feel they have a better chance that way.

Wouldn't work if you trap every night obviously, but I only trap once a week.

Regards, Audrey.

[MetalMoth]

That is a good idea to release them when it is dark. However obviously some moths still get eaten as they land round the trap and in the morning the birds pick them off.

[Julian Howe]

I am trapping quite regularly, and have noticed birds coming to the trap and picking off the ones sat on the outside. I now go to the trap while it's still quite dark, although I know robins and blackbirds start feeding very early, but hopefully I'm saving a few.

Had a successful release this morning, still quite overcast, no sign of the robin!

[tristanba]

Originally Posted by MetalMoth

Also in reply to your point about collections. I agree with collections. I have some myself, water beetles and dung beetles. However I think moths can be done now without making your own personal collection. So you dont need to kill them. The work has been done in the past so we don't have to kill moths now. Much like we don't have to kill butterflies anymore.

Not strictly true as there are several examples of macromoth taxa where species cannot be separated via external morphology and voucher specimens must be taken for accurate species determination. Examples include the 'Ear' moths (Amphipoea sp), Grey/Dark Dagger and 'Minors' (Oligia sp), in addition to the Epirrita species, of which the Autumnal Moth is a member. So even if you had obtained a photo, you would probably be none the wiser as to its identity.