is it wrong to collect/kill moths?

[whaleomeloette]

i love the idea of a moth display but id feel bad about killing the poor things! no matter how common a cabbage moth may be
what do you all think about this?

edit- i dont plan on killing stuff by the way! which is why i said :
'id feel bad about killing the poor things'
just wondering what the general feeling about this is

[the naturelover]

I may be an old fuddy duddy but PLEASE NEVER kill anything. every creature and plant on this planet has a place and purpose. take only photos leave only footprints! On a lighter note try the charity shops or if you have deeper pockets an antique shop. there are plenty of old (victorian) frames of moths butterfly and insect specimins to be found. regards the naturelover

[Kayleigh]

If you feel bad about it then its simple dont do it..
if you have no conscience then do it..

[whaleomeloette]

Originally Posted by the naturelover

I may be an old fuddy duddy but PLEASE NEVER kill anything. every creature and plant on this planet has a place and purpose. take only photos leave only footprints! On a lighter note try the charity shops or if you have deeper pockets an antique shop. there are plenty of old (victorian) frames of moths butterfly and insect specimins to be found. regards the naturelover

oh i wouldnt kill anything. i spent 5 mins yesterday trying to catch a sodding grass hopper and move it out the road. stupid hopper...
i have alot of taxidermy, all died of natural causes

[Kayleigh]

Originally Posted by whaleomeloette

oh i wouldnt kill anything. i spent 5 mins yesterday trying to catch a sodding grass hopper and move it out the road. stupid hopper...
i have alot of taxidermy, all died of natural causes

You asked if it was wrong to kill moths..
If it has no scientific value then yes its wrong..in my view..anyway.

[Jason Green]

Evening Whale Omellete,

Interesting question, and so we all know where we stand - I am into amateur entomology and have a collection myself - but not of moths.

Right, now that's out the way... there are several types of 'collectors' that need to be understood. First off - scientific/research ones. This is mine - a collection of well-preserved specimens in identical positions for comparison, pinned individually so I can get them under the microscope as and when, and each in such a way that it remains with all the identification features on show. I retain some field-identifiable species too, so if they are split into species-complexes I can go back through them for re-identification and re-submission to a recording scheme if I have one of the new ones. Some of them need very close examination - some have to have the genitalia removed and preserved (you need DMHF for this really, but I'm using water-soluble glue... not ideal), and the other day I spent about an hour examining the carefully-removed mandibles of a Eumemid wasp in order to decide between two species - I got there, and very rewarding it was going through all 12 couplets and ending-up at a good ID. A retained specimen for expert verification if necessary, for future research - and a good record of a non-photo-identifiable species for the relevant Recording Scheme (probably quite important these ones, now a lot of people think modern digital photography is in any way a replacement!). If you're going to properly maintain it and make reference to genitalia, use keys/microscopes and also work with the really tough ones that go under-recorded and under-studied as a result then it's very worthwhile and like what I do, and in my mind acceptable so long as you're mindful of natural surroundings during collection, and colonies etc.

Then, there are those who do for the sake of looking at specimens, possibly without scientific intent., then surely photos would suffice. There's even a third group who do it for financial gain such as the creation of insect-emblazoned jewellry which I am strongly against.

You're bound to get a few posts condemning the killing outright - but I'd remind those that your intention is the important thing. It has to be said, a lot of what we know about the number of species out there comes from vouchers, and those of us on here who identify photographs, can because we have either taken specimens or read keys. Without it, we'd be none the wiser in a lot of areas. Since starting, I've learned a lot more.

Take care,

Jason

[the naturelover]

sorry to bang on about this but i do feel strongly that killing anything for the sake of a TROPHY wall/cabinet is wrong, I am not even convinced about the scientific arguement, i bet every amatuer entemologist and every university in the country have their own collections for study/reference purposes. (can not these resources be shared) I'm pretty sure the man who stuffed the last sabretooth tiger for the london museum and the man who ate the last dodo felt that they were doing no harm. THINK if this was an argument about human beings would you condone the killing of say for instance a 7 year old indian girl for reference against a 7 year old german girl. I still say kill nothing not even an ant. I know this will probably get me barred from the website but i would dearly like to see other members opinions. regards the natureluver

[Jason Green]

Originally Posted by the naturelover

sorry to bang on about this but i do feel strongly that killing anything for the sake of a TROPHY wall/cabinet is wrong, I am not even convinced about the scientific arguement, i bet every amatuer entemologist and every university in the country have their own collections for study/reference purposes. (can not these resources be shared)

Yes and no - a lot of entomologists pass specimens onto museums or other amateurs/professionals for study. Some leave their collections in their wills for submission to their local museum or biological recording centre. Still, a lot of our work is in surveying our own patch, and thus we get species that are present in most collections, but we still need to work independantly for exactly this reason - full surveying of as many grid-squares as we can across the country. We each stand a chance of finding a new species, a good rarity or even re-discovering one thought extinct or remained unseen for a few years.

One thing I have become aware of, is that those who hate the idea of collecting (I did too, prior to collecting myself), don't quite realise how many different species of each type of insect there actually are. They see good-quality websites with fully-named insects, and think that's what entomologists collect. The fact is, there are tens upon tens more species out there - the 'Net gives you only a small percentage. When you begin looking through keys you'll see how many more there are per family and how subtley each one may differ to the next, and on seeing an insect under the microscope at as little as 20x you'd realise how they can vary - and that field-photos are no replacement.

Originally Posted by the naturelover

THINK if this was an argument about human beings would you condone the killing of say for instance a 7 year old indian girl for reference against a 7 year old german girl.

Sorry, but this point is ridiculous...

Originally Posted by the naturelover

I know this will probably get me barred from the website but i would dearly like to see other members opinions.

It certainly won't, but what may are the things people come out with when debates hot-up - so let's just remember both sides have a valuable point of view which may benefit the other, and remember we're both seemingly on opposing sides of the same coin - pro-wildlife

[Harry Eales]

Originally Posted by Jason Green

Evening Whale Omellete,

Interesting question, and so we all know where we stand - I am into amateur entomology and have a collection myself - but not of moths.

Right, now that's out the way... there are several types of 'collectors' that need to be understood. First off - scientific/research ones. This is mine - a collection of well-preserved specimens in identical positions for comparison, pinned individually so I can get them under the microscope as and when, and each in such a way that it remains with all the identification features on show. I retain some field-identifiable species too, so if they are split into species-complexes I can go back through them for re-identification and re-submission to a recording scheme if I have one of the new ones. Some of them need very close examination - some have to have the genitalia removed and preserved (you need DMHF for this really, but I'm using water-soluble glue... not ideal), and the other day I spent about an hour examining the carefully-removed mandibles of a Eumemid wasp in order to decide between two species - I got there, and very rewarding it was going through all 12 couplets and ending-up at a good ID. A retained specimen for expert verification if necessary, for future research - and a good record of a non-photo-identifiable species for the relevant Recording Scheme (probably quite important these ones, now a lot of people think modern digital photography is in any way a replacement!). If you're going to properly maintain it and make reference to genitalia, use keys/microscopes and also work with the really tough ones that go under-recorded and under-studied as a result then it's very worthwhile and like what I do, and in my mind acceptable so long as you're mindful of natural surroundings during collection, and colonies etc.

Then, there are those who do for the sake of looking at specimens, possibly without scientific intent., then surely photos would suffice. There's even a third group who do it for financial gain such as the creation of insect-emblazoned jewellry which I am strongly against.

You're bound to get a few posts condemning the killing outright - but I'd remind those that your intention is the important thing. It has to be said, a lot of what we know about the number of species out there comes from vouchers, and those of us on here who identify photographs, can because we have either taken specimens or read keys. Without it, we'd be none the wiser in a lot of areas. Since starting, I've learned a lot more.

Take care,

Jason

Jason is absolutely 'spot on' Collecting for a well defined scientific purpose or to verify the identity of a species is perfectly justifiable. Remember only some 3 to 4,000 of the British insects can be visually identified. The other 18,000 need to be either looked at under a microscope or dissected.

Collecting for commercial gain, making pictures out of wings or prettying up drink coasters is totally indefensible.

Remember that every time you drive during the hours of darkness you will kill moths (even in the depths of winter). It can't be helped, and it isn't usually intended, but moths do have a habit of diving into the headlight beams only to be swatted to death by your car.

Harry

[whaleomeloette]

people keep saying killing things full stop is wrong.
how many of you eat meat?

so its ok to kill a cow which is FAR more intellegent than a moth.. because you think its tastes nice on a bun, but you cant kill moths for scientific study?

lets not turn this into a raging arguement, im just making a very very valid point and would like a sensible *discussion* as i think it could be very intersting!