Cinnabar moth & ragwort

[m1.carson]

Sorry if this is in the wrong place, but anyway.

Two and a half years ago ragwort was all over the place here, most of which was covered by cinnabar caterpillars, last year I didn't see half a dozen caterpillars total, this year there's only a few minor patches of ragwort left.

coincidence or not ?

Max.

[RobSutton]

Originally Posted by m1.carson

Sorry if this is in the wrong place, but anyway.

Two and a half years ago ragwort was all over the place here, most of which was covered by cinnabar caterpillars, last year I didn't see half a dozen caterpillars total, this year there's only a few minor patches of ragwort left.

coincidence or not ?

Max.

I seem to remember from university days that the number of Cinnabar Moths caterpillars depends on how well the Ragwort grew in the previous year and that Ragwort growth was influenced by the amount of autumn and spring rainfall. So a good autumn and spring for Ragwort led to a high number of Cinnabar Moth caterpillars the following year. The amount of Ragwort though wasn't affected by the number of Cinnabar Moth caterpillars, other factors such as rainfall and disturbance of the ground by rabbits were more important in determining whether there was a good growth of Ragwort.

[healfdan]

It could be that the local authority or landowners had their teams ragwort pulling or treating it with Barrier H, which is an effective herbicide at all stages of the plants growth. If this is so, do not blame landowners or their staff as they have a duty of care to the public, nearby properties and grazing areas. It is important that Ragwort is controlled alongside roads and tracks used by vehicles, as seed drift assisted by vehicle movement can disperse the seed great distances. Similarly control is usually exercised along the margins of horse rides and sites close to residential properties where seed drifts into gardens and allotments. Where possible responsible landowners will leave some ragwort on sites off the beaten track. Such sites will be regularly monitored with action only taken if the plant colonises nearby land. Barrier H is quick and effective at reducing the spread.
Healfdan

[Neil Jones]

Originally Posted by healfdan

It could be that the local authority or landowners had their teams ragwort pulling or treating it with Barrier H, which is an effective herbicide at all stages of the plants growth. If this is so, do not blame landowners or their staff as they have a duty of care to the public, nearby properties and grazing areas. It is important that Ragwort is controlled alongside roads and tracks used by vehicles, as seed drift assisted by vehicle movement can disperse the seed great distances. Similarly control is usually exercised along the margins of horse rides and sites close to residential properties where seed drifts into gardens and allotments. Where possible responsible landowners will leave some ragwort on sites off the beaten track. Such sites will be regularly monitored with action only taken if the plant colonises nearby land. Barrier H is quick and effective at reducing the spread.
Healfdan

This has all been discussed in the other thread. The council can be blamed for being ignorant and listening to the hysteria. If ragwort is a problem then horses should not be kept in fields for the similar risk of being struck by lightning would be a problem.
Ragwort is a very important plant ecologically. It doesn't spread fast by seed.
It is important that it is retained every where for the wildlife. We know all of this because the science tells us so.
There has been a hysterical, irrational, and pseudoscientific campaign against this plant.

Please see:-

http:/www.ragwortfacts.com
Ragwort, myths and facts
Buglife | Ragwort | Ragwort: Yellow Peril or Precious Flower?

[Pippa]

Ragwort is great for wild-life, however, it is controlled where horses are.This has always been the case where i used to live.I don't think there is much hysteria though.Most people don't really give it a thought.

[Neil Jones]

Pippa. without any question there is hysteria. I, as someone who studies it I
have monitoring tools watching for it.

This is one of the latest items from a Councillor in Cornwall. Read the reply
. I recognise the name of the person replying to his blog as that of a prominent, leading, British conservationist.

Jeremy Rowe Blog Archive Ragwort

You haven't been working in this area. So you won't have seen the false claims of it poisoning thousands of horses a year, of it giving you cancer if you touch it, of it being a foreign invader (That was on my council's website and it is on many more.) You won't have monitored Hansard, the official record of Parliament, and seen MPs repeating daft myths that their constituents have told them. We had Churchill's Grandson Nicholas Soames , who is an MP declaring it a national disgrace in the House of Commons recently. Perhaps he wants us to fight it on the beaches :-)

Another link about it from conservationists for you
Ragwort The sense and the nonsense.

[Miss Caretaker]

I think it is less hysteria and more uncorrected misinformation. I was talking to a lady who was photographing butterflies whilst I was walking my dogs yesterday in public park that is being managed specifically for wild flowers etc. when we got onto the subject of the Cinnabar moth. On one side of the road the ragwort is covered in Cinnabar cats but on the other side there isn't a single caterpillar. She said that the ragwort shouldn't be there anyway as "it is an offence to allow it to grow on your land". I did point out that there was no grazing nearby but let it go as I didn't want to end up having a row. I'm pretty sure that a person can't be committing a criminal offence by having ragwort growing but it shows what people believe; even those involved with Butterfly Conservation and other wildlife charities she mentioned volunteering for.

Neil, I can't believe people think ragwort gives you cancer! What planet are they on?!! However, if the so called people in the know (ie politicians) are perpetuating these myths then I suppose we can't blame people for believing them. I will certainly be correcting people from now on whether it ends in a row or not!

[Neil Jones]

Originally Posted by Miss Caretaker

I think it is less hysteria and more uncorrected misinformation. I was talking to a lady who was photographing butterflies whilst I was walking my dogs yesterday in public park that is being managed specifically for wild flowers etc. when we got onto the subject of the Cinnabar moth. On one side of the road the ragwort is covered in Cinnabar cats but on the other side there isn't a single caterpillar. She said that the ragwort shouldn't be there anyway as "it is an offence to allow it to grow on your land".

Common myth often repeated with people with a financial interest in controlling it. I won't name the companies involved but there are some famous and not so famous names involved in this. You can be ordered to control it but it is not compulsory otherwise.

I did point out that there was no grazing nearby but let it go as I didn't want to end up having a row. I'm pretty sure that a person can't be committing a criminal offence by having ragwort growing but it shows what people believe; even those involved with Butterfly Conservation and other wildlife charities she mentioned volunteering for.

Not surprising at all. I have seen and heard these things myself.
I have some real horror stories of misunderstandings, poor science and
muddle headed thinking about various wildlife trusts and similar orgs that
I won't share in a public forum. It is only a problem in hay not to grazing animals. The chemicals involved occur in 3% of all plants.

Neil, I can't believe people think ragwort gives you cancer! What planet are they on?!! However, if the so called people in the know (ie politicians) are perpetuating these myths then I suppose we can't blame people for believing them. I will certainly be correcting people from now on whether it ends in a row or not!

It was mentioned by at least one local council in a leaflet. Let alone the websites etc that are around. There were a series of letters in one of the west country newspapers with one telling people not to touch it because it gave you liver damage if you did ( the milder version of the hoax.)
This culminated in a scathing reply by a local toxicologist.
As it happens this has been looked into and the Dutch website I gave in particular has an article from a world leader in the field with a Phd in ragwort itself telling you why this doesn't happen.

These are some quotes with my comments from the Daily Mail.

The plant's toxins can be absorbed through the skin or breathed in as pollen grains. Inside the human body, the poisons begin damaging liver cells, a slow and irreversible process leading to cirrhosis, months or even years later.
This is rubbish. They have taken the biochemistry and stretched it to hyperbolic dimensions to scare people

Up to 6,500 horses die every year from Ragwort poisoning.
Notice the "up to". They didn't tell you about the bent statistics behind it.
The real figure according to government figures and consistent with international
evidence is around a dozen. One marketer of treatments changed the "up to" to "over" and press released it everywhere. Cheeky monkeys

Botanists estimate that the annual rate of spread is around ten per cent.
This is pure invention. Total nonsense. Bunkum bilge water etc.etc.

Some are hysterical. Some are just believing it but there is a definite campaign of misinformation that is hysterical in tone. The example you quote may come as a result of the Countryside Alliance writing to every local paper in the country saying they had written to every council. They made the same error telling them that the council had a duty to control it. They don't. There is some rather OTT guidance but guidance it is. One wonders how they could make such an error but they said they had had loads of members write to them.

[healfdan]

Neil
You argue your case very eloquently but for grass root conservationist responsible for managing public open spaces, we do not have the time to sift through the conflicting evidence. For instance an SSSI or similarly designated site has to comply with best practice in accordance with management plans for the site. It is not hysteria that prompts our actions but information supplied by DEFRA, Natural England etc. Such sites rely on funding and this means following orders. No manager wants to spend time and money on pest or weed control unless it is in the best interest of the public they serve. In rural areas this means other land owners, grazing sites and horse rides.
I know that Ragwort is an important plant for a few invertebrates but in fields where it is allowed to flourish Ragwort can grow at the expense of other equally important plants.
You really do have an uphill struggle to change the views of the riding fraternity who have been conditioned to view Ragwort as the yellow peril.
Personally I see it as just another wild plant, that has received more than its fair share of bad press and all too often grows in the wrong place.
Very sorry to ruffle your feathers but good luck anyway in your mission.
Healfdan

[ollyk]

Neil I am glad to see Jeremy Row has gone to some effort to redress his original article (I emailed him also).

It is a shame that the other link he provided is full of scare tactics and miss-information