November Moth?

[jennyb]

Does anyone know if this is a November Moth - Epirrita dilutata?



I know it is very difficult to tell the difference between the Pale November and the November, but I wonder if it is something different entirely. It is very non-descript.

Jenny

[DL]

Cant tell for shure without checking the underside but I would guess at November Moth because the line from the shoulder spot to the Y is complete all the way. I have never seen Pale November Moth with this line intact all the way but mabey someone else has.

Thats actualy a very well marked one compared to the ones I am getting at the moment which have no visible markings left whatsoever even when having a good look through a hand lens.

[John]

According to the experts you can't ID a November Moth without dissecting the genitalia. I have caught a few of these moths and have had to ID them as November Moth agg.

John

[DL]

I hear that one often but its not realy true you can differenciate the species by examining the abdomen with a lens or by eye with a bit of practice and by a couple of diagnostic features such as the one mentioned. See Waring Townsend & Lewington pp 98.

[Imaginos]

Originally Posted by DL

I hear that one often but its not realy true you can differenciate the species by examining the abdomen with a lens or by eye with a bit of practice and by a couple of diagnostic features such as the one mentioned. See Waring Townsend & Lewington pp 98.

The guy who identifies the moths here, and another expert both tell me that it is only possible to identify these with any certainty is through genital examination & that the Waring features are far too variable to rely on (check out the amount of times the word 'usually' is mentioned in the identification paragraphs).

[DL]

To an extent I agree but..... "Live males of all four species can easily be identified by examination of the underside of the abdomen with a hand lens" etc try it out its not hard if you can for example sex dragonflies you wont find this any more difficult ,which is why I pointed out in my first post that you cant be shure without examining the underside.

Plus some diagnostic features dont cross over ie the unbroken lines. Which again is why I made that point. If this moth had broken lines above the Y then it would not be possible to tell if it was November or Pale November.

I also asked if anyone had ever seen that feature on Pale November, I dont know anyone who has including individuals who have been at it for thirty + years.

[jennyb]

Oh dear. I'm out of my depth on this discussion.

I will assume November moth - probably.

Thanks for all your help.

Jenny

[DL]

Label it as John suggests - November Moth agg. Thats nomal procedure as you cant be 100% certain without examining the abdomen of the males with a hand lens or dissecting the females.

As in my first post if you wanted a guess and it would only be that a guess - then November but only because the network of black veins has no breaks in it and I cant find any 100% positive examples of Pale that have this feature yet but would welcome any from anybody who has.

[John]

Have you forgotten that you also have to lump in Autumnal Moth and Small autumnal moth into the November Moth agg catergoryas well as pale November.

You won't find any expert that will commit themselves to an ID on these moths without dissection.

John

[DL]

No I havent John that why I stated "Four Species" in my previous post. I have been working with two individuals who have doctorates in entomology on this project but only for the last two seasons as I am only a qualified Ecologist that specialises in entomology not a qualified entomologist myself (yet)

This is why I am interested to see more specific info on these species and that recorders should mabey take a little time look in to trying to differenciate more between the species. Many just take point blank the statement that it cant be done when looking for more detail may help resolve this one.

[John]

Originally Posted by DL

No I havent John that why I stated "Four Species" in my previous post.

Ooops!! sorry, I missed that.

Originally Posted by DL

I have been working with two individuals who have doctorates in entomology on this project but only for the last two seasons as I am only a qualified Ecologist that specialises in entomology not a qualified entomologist myself (yet)

I have been posting these images to some of the foremost Moth Experts. They, to a man, will not commit on sight alone, no matter how much you magnify these moths. Dissection in their minds is the only way and that is not taken on the fact that other people say so but the solid fact that dissection is the only guaranteed way.

Originally Posted by DL

This is why I am interested to see more specific info on these species and that recorders should mabey take a little time look in to trying to differenciate more between the species. Many just take point blank the statement that it cant be done when looking for more detail may help resolve this one.

I can't imagine any true expert going along with what others say. Doing that they would fall flat on their face too many times and their credibility would go down the toilet.

John