Grey squirrels show i encourage

[Dogghound]

Originally Posted by stevecurtis

Is it possible that the odd dead Badger I find spring time have died for this reason?

All the best Steve

Sorry well of thread

There could be quite a number of reasons for this. It tends not to be fatal in badgers and females almost always breed, due to the social structure. Some do breed but dont become impregnated. Infertile females struggle in badger society and are often attacked, they are also usually underweight, have more parasites and in a poor condition.

I suspect what you are finding could be something totally different. Anything else distinctive about them?

[King Edward]

Originally Posted by RoyW

I would expect that Pine Martens would predate some Grey Squirrels if they inhabited the same areas, and this no doubt would include predating young (and some adults) from dreys. I sincerely doubt that it would result in any real change in numbers though because I would expect the numbers taken to be too small to have any real effect, and the slight reduction in competition for food would then even things out by making it easier for the others to survive.
It would be a form of natural control, but that doesn't mean that the effects will be noticeable.

I suspect Pine Martens could have a significant effect on Grey Squirrel numbers (in theory, at least), not just by killing individuals but also by affecting squirrel behaviour e.g. foraging less on the ground, perhaps reduced fertility as well.

In the real world, though, probably not, since Grey Squirrels are much better suited to our current man-made environment than Pine Martens. I've also seen the suggestion that Wild Boar could reduce squirrel numbers by hoovering up all the fallen nuts, so combine a reduced food supply with increased predation (and predation risk), and you could well start to get real effects on numbers.

[MartinL]

Originally Posted by King Edward

I suspect Pine Martens could have a significant effect on Grey Squirrel numbers (in theory, at least), not just by killing individuals but also by affecting squirrel behaviour e.g. foraging less on the ground, perhaps reduced fertility as well.

In the real world, though, probably not, since Grey Squirrels are much better suited to our current man-made environment than Pine Martens.....

But the "real" (rural) world outside the towns we could have a friend in the Pine Marten?
Would they compete with mink too? I think otters can have some affect on mink, but not sure of anything else!

[Dogghound]

Originally Posted by MartinL

But the "real" (rural) world outside the towns we could have a friend in the Pine Marten?
Would they compete with mink too? I think otters can have some affect on mink, but not sure of anything else!

Its unlikely that the pine marten would be seen as a friend in rural areas. Gamekeepers are largely the cause of the species restricted population and in many places they are still unpopular.

Pine marten occupy a slight different niche to mink, but certainly in terms of diet they may overlap in some habitats. Obviously mink are far more aquatic, but it would be interesting if any study has been done on this. Pine marten tend to compete more with red foxes in Britain and Beech Martens in Europe rather than mink.

Otters do compete with mink and on some watersheds mink numbers decrease (but not on all!) however polecats are probably more of a competitor. Otters tend to be more aquatic and more of a specialist than mink and occupy slightly different territorial niches. Polecats on the other hand although not aquatic are very similar to mink not only in size but also being a generalist with a similar diet. As polecats continue to increase their impact on mink may become greater. Mink tend to become more diurnal where territories overlap with polecats to avoid interactions and change competition patterns. It will be interesting to see how our mustelids change as populations increase.

[RoyW]

Originally Posted by King Edward

I suspect Pine Martens could have a significant effect on Grey Squirrel numbers (in theory, at least), not just by killing individuals but also by affecting squirrel behaviour e.g. foraging less on the ground, perhaps reduced fertility as well.

In the real world, though, probably not, since Grey Squirrels are much better suited to our current man-made environment than Pine Martens. I've also seen the suggestion that Wild Boar could reduce squirrel numbers by hoovering up all the fallen nuts, so combine a reduced food supply with increased predation (and predation risk), and you could well start to get real effects on numbers.

As many studies have already suggested that food availability may be the main limiting factor on squirrel populations, I would think that competition for food from Wild Boars could well reduce the number of Grey Squirrels in some areas (particularly areas where there are relatively few bird feeding stations that squirrels can benefit from).

I still suspect that Pine Martens on the other hand would have relatively little effect. In the parts of the UK that have high densities of Pine Martens, the density of the human population is relatively low - but they are still almost exclusively nocturnal. I don't see this being different in regions where they are far more likely to encounter humans and domestic dogs if they are active during the day, so they are generally unlikely to be active during the time that they might otherwise affect squirrel foraging activity (though it is possible that they may choose to be active at a time when they can actively hunt Grey Squirrels).
Possibly they will learn to hunt Grey Squirrels in their dreys, but if food availability is currently the main factor limiting squirrel populations predation might not reduce the population much below current levels (Pine Martens will kill some, but others that would previously have died due to shortages of food may then survive instead). In reality though we can't know what effect Pine Martens might have on Grey Squirrels until they are both present in the same areas, and the population of squirrels before and after Pine Martens reach an area are studied.

[twopoke]

i love the idea of introducing something else to sort out what we have introduced....... smacks of the lady that swollowed a fly!

we (by we i mean man kind) has attempted this sort of thing before and caused some major problems.... kane toad's...... myxomatosis...... need i go on?
i seriously think the only thing to do is cull the animal..... man introduced it.... man should extract it!

im not saying the government should start up a swat type force and patrol the country costing millions. i mean if they are on youre land you are allowed..... even requested to dispose of them (either youreself or with external help)

the government and agency's can guess at how many are there. the people that know are the walkers the gardeners the grounds men/women.
i see them every day in my local parks but cant doanything about it.... ide happily shoot them with my air rifel (put them on our local takeaways menu too) ide do it for free and im insured but could you imagen my local councle allowing me it rome the parks with my rifel......... i think not!!!

[MartinL]

Originally Posted by twopoke

could you imagen my local councle allowing me it rome the parks with my rifel......... i think not!!!

I don't think it's very likely either.

[King Edward]

But Pine Martens are native here - it's not as if anyone is proposing introducing Asian Mongooses or some other foreign species.

[eeyore]

but look at their native habitat - vs the range of the grey squirell

[RoyW]

Originally Posted by twopoke

i love the idea of introducing something else to sort out what we have introduced....... smacks of the lady that swollowed a fly!

we (by we i mean man kind) has attempted this sort of thing before and caused some major problems.... kane toad's...... myxomatosis...... need i go on?
i seriously think the only thing to do is cull the animal..... man introduced it.... man should extract it!

(bold added)

Originally Posted by King Edward

But Pine Martens are native here - it's not as if anyone is proposing introducing Asian Mongooses or some other foreign species.

Not only are Pine Martens native, the main reason why they aren't widespread in the UK is that "man" eradicated them from most areas - so using very similar reasoning to your (valid) argument for culling squirrels twopoke, you should perhaps be arguing that in the case of the Pine Marten... "man eradicated it... man should return it!"

I'm not convinced that myomatosis is a good example of an introduction as an attempted control measure really caused 'major problems' either. It's a very nasty way for Rabbits to die, but it does not affect any other animals directly. The indirect effects of habitat change caused when large numbers of Rabbits died in some areas did cause problems for some species (mainly plants and invertebrates), but the myxomatosis did only what it was intended to do - killed Rabbits, and if the non native Rabbits hadn't been introduced in the first place habitats that require Rabbits wouldn't have been present in the first place. Anyway, that's another discussion that would take this thread off on another "off topic" direction!

My personal opinion is that we should do everything possible to stop Grey Squirrels spreading into new areas, and should definitely not encourage them in the areas where they are already found. It's far, far too late to realistically contemplate eradication though (but would probably have been possible in Italy if it hadn't been for misguided animal rights activists who have no idea about ecology).
For Pine Martens, on the other hand, we should be doing everything possible to help them increase in, and spread from, the areas where they are still present. I'm not sure that agree with the idea of reintroducing them anywhere - in some cases this is a good idea for specific species, but I think that the time and money put into many reintroduction schemes would be better spent on other conservation issues. (Off topic again - but threads like this do tend to wander!).