Badger cull to go ahead!?

[Adam Cheeseman]

Originally Posted by yorkieuk

Its easy passing on the buck but many countries in the eu have badgers and no BTb.

A discussion I saw on telly yesterday stated that in Ireland they have 'virtually wiped out' the Badgers there and they are now experiencing higher than ever levels of BTb.

Cheers,

Adam

[Adam Cheeseman]

Originally Posted by Digit

He didnt post any,

I do not know of any cull that increased BTB within the culled area, in either Badgers or cattle.

This was one of the findings discovered in a four year trial cull. (As stated on Countryfile)

Cheers


Adam

[Digit]

This was one of the findings discovered in a four year trial cull. (As stated on Countryfile)

What was?

Roy.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Digit

So what options have not been tried?

vacination hasnt been tried (or at least tried properly) - either vacinate the badgers (which will reduce BTB in badgers and if it doesnt also reduce in cows demonstrate that badgers are not the principal vector) or vacinate the cows, at which point it wont matter whether the badgers (or deer, hedgehogs etc) have it or not.

The National Trust at Killerton in devon are involved in a big pilot project of badger vaccine so we may see positive results from that.

Also in answer to the ealier point about how culling badgers increases BTB infections it can have that effect in one of two ways

a) if the badgers in the culled setts are not currently infected with btb , killing them creates a a reduction below carrying capacity in the badger population in the cull area , which badgers from other areas move in to , and some of these migrant badgers may be BTB positive thus increasing the spread of the infection

and b) the other effect of culling is that surviver badgers from the culled setts (they never get them all) often move outwards and thus if any of the survivors are btb positive they again spread the disease more widely.

Personally I dont doubt that some badgers carry btb, and some may occasionally pass it to cows, but they arent the only vector or possibly even the main one - so on one hand we could kill all the badgers, deer, hedgehogs etc in the countryside , and dramatically improve biosecurity measures arround farms or on the otherhand we could just vacinate the cows and stop worrying about it.

and as regards the vacination not being endorsed by the EU , perhaps the government could grow a pair when dealing with their EU patners and get the vacine endorsed - or we could produce here to consume here and stop shipping livestock to and from the continent.

The ohh but the EU dont like it argument was also used about FMD vacine in 2001 - so the government closed the countryside and crippled the tourism industry instead - however defra's action plan for a future FMD outbreak includes the use of vacine (which is still eu unendorsed)

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Digit

I'll tell you what doesn't sit well with me, and it's thousands of Badgers dieing of TB. If that requires reducing numbers to a level where the disease dies out in Badgers then I believe we must take that step.
.

somewhat lacking in logic there Roy - you aren't happy about 1 in 5 (or lesss as not every infected animal actually develops the disease, and the test throws false positives) badgers dying of tb, but you are okay with badgers (including the 4 in 5 who are currently not btb positive) dying as part of the cull

[Digit]

Hi eeyore, where yer bin?

or vacinate the cows, at which point it wont matter whether the badgers (or deer, hedgehogs etc) have it or not.


That is so simple, so straight forward, so obvious that the politicians will never accept it!

a) if the badgers in the culled setts are not currently infected with btb , killing them creates a a reduction below carrying capacity in the badger population in the cull area , which badgers from other areas move in to , and some of these migrant badgers may be BTB positive thus increasing the spread of the infection

Yep!

and b) the other effect of culling is that surviver badgers from the culled setts (they never get them all) often move outwards and thus if any of the survivors are btb positive they again spread the disease more widely.

Yep! To which the answer is equally obvious that a cull would need to be nation wide.

just vacinate the cows and stop worrying about it.

A partial yep! That wouldn't help Badgers would it?

I know that you are a ranger eeyore so perhaps you can answer a question for me on the subject of the Killerton trial that started recently.
What are they doing with infected Badgers?

Roy.

[Digit]

somewhat lacking in logic there Roy - you aren't happy about 1 in 5 (or lesss as not every infected animal actually develops the disease, and the test throws false positives) badgers dying of tb, but you are okay with badgers (including the 4 in 5 who are currently not btb positive) dying as part of the cull

Happy eeyore?

As you state, not all latent TB moves onto the infectious stage, but if this vaccination of Badgers is not successful then we have no other way of stopping the spread of the disease horizontally within the Badgers do we?
DEFRA's maps of the spread show a disease out of control don't they?
If vaccination fails, there are but ways open to us, ignore it or reduce Badger numbers to the level that the disease dies out due to a shortage of victims, is that not so?

Roy.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Digit

I know that you are a ranger eeyore so perhaps you can answer a question for me on the subject of the Killerton trial that started recently.
What are they doing with infected Badgers?

Roy.

I can't answer that

a) because I genuinely dont know

b) because I try to keep my personal life seperate to my proffesional so none of my posts on wab are anything other than my own opinion and not the official position of my employer, and

c) because even if I was authorised to post on behalf of the trust, i'm not involved in the trial or on the Killerton team so it wouldnt be appropriate to comment on that matter

You'd be best directing that question to a chap called Alex Raeder who is project lead - I dont have his contacts to hand but you can probably find them on the Trust website.

[Digit]

The reason I asked is that as I understand the situation the operators will be supplied with a 'kit' consisting of a bio hazard suit, a reactor test, a trap and a vial of vaccine.
Now releasing infected animals back into the wild would be counter productive would it not?
Another question my friend. If politicians were ever to inherit a 'common sense' gene and vaccinate cattle would you suggest leaving the Badgers alone?
I take it you have seen DEFRA's maps?

Roy.

[Adam Cheeseman]

Originally Posted by Digit

This was one of the findings discovered in a four year trial cull. (As stated on Countryfile)

What was?

Roy.

That in some areas, BTb actually increased after the Badgers were 'removed'.

Cheers,

Adam