Do Grey Squirrels have any good points?

[nightshade]

Gill is right we have been interfering with this islands
eco-system for so long the let it be approach is not
an option the grey being a prime example

[mh68]

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

Please god they don't start widespread removal of mixed woodland for non-native conifer plantations this would be disasterous for hundreds if not thousands of other species. They could potentialy plant such plantations, but I don't think greys would stay out, you'd have to keep them out, and of course such plantations would take decades to mature by which point the red may only exist in captivity.

I saw that program it sort of explains why they end up ring barking so many trees where I was in south wales as it was mostly plantation where I was. As explained I guess it's because there's not enough energy in the cones for them. I don't think just changing the tree type is enough to protect the reds, it's always going to be a combination of control and habitat manipulation in order to stop the red going extinct I think.


My personal feeling is that if you are trying to protect the rare and the vulnerable and it's being destroyed by something common and widespread then yes in those specific areas (not necessarily national extermination) the destructive species should be controlled.

Also if your livelyhood in terms of crops or trees, which are useful products for all of us, are being destroyed by a common and widespread species these should be controlled.
Always in as humane a way as possible and actually in terms of rabbit, pigeon and even squirrel this is then good free range meat from an animal that has lived a wild life on it's own terms, I don't like the idea of a wasted life, I would prefer all of the animal to be utilised and not just chucked on a bonfire or in the bin, I'm not vegetarian nor will I ever be, but I believe in being respectful of the life that has been taken on my behalf. I'm really only uncomfortable when animals are killed for no reason at all with no benefits arising from their death or their lives taken flippantly or an animalis allowed to suffer.

The countryside and its wildlife is a massively complex and vulnerable web and the 'just let it be' method of management I don't feel can work in this country because we've already altered it and upset the balance so much, - mainly in terms of habitat loss, we are left with a crazy juggling act just to keep what we have.....

I can't help but feel that for water voles and red squirrel it may already be too late but if we just sit back and do nothing, this will certainly be the case. I personally could not sit back and watch mistakes we have made result in the loss of these species.

Excellent post!!

Mark H

[Seajay]

Well said Gill Catton. Excellent points and spot on!

[svenrufus]

Originally Posted by ripplingwave

... I don't believe any human has the right to take a life of another living being, especially when we caused the problem.

In this context that sort of attitude is a cop out and doesn't add up. Leaving aside all the other issues that have been raised on this thread, there is a simple choice to be made.
Killing the greys can protect the reds.
or
Not killing the greys kills the reds.

Therefore your choice is to kill actively or passively, it amounts to the same thing. You just choose which death (or life) has greater value. In this case a common non native species or a rare native.

Avoiding the issue does not absolve us of complicity in the demise of the reds, washing our hands of our past involvement and blaming it on the natural world is an abdication of our moral responsibility to do the best we can.

Yes we have made a mess of this planet and it will never be the way ot could have been but for us, but so what, we have what we have and we have to look after what's left.

[ripplingwave]

Originally Posted by svenrufus

In this context that sort of attitude is a cop out and doesn't add up. Leaving aside all the other issues that have been raised on this thread, there is a simple choice to be made.
Killing the greys can protect the reds.
or
Not killing the greys kills the reds.

Therefore your choice is to kill actively or passively, it amounts to the same thing. You just choose which death (or life) has greater value. In this case a common non native species or a rare native.

Avoiding the issue does not absolve us of complicity in the demise of the reds, washing our hands of our past involvement and blaming it on the natural world is an abdication of our moral responsibility to do the best we can.

Yes we have made a mess of this planet and it will never be the way ot could have been but for us, but so what, we have what we have and we have to look after what's left.

Its not a cop out at all, some people on this planet would rather die than kill another being (unless it is suffering), I am one of those people. Its my personal choice.
Im not stupid, I know that greys need controlling but I am not going to actively support culling on my moral grounds. I think we should all learn from the mistakes made by our ancestors. I also think that even if we save the red squirrel populations that are in serious decline by controlling the greys it may be for nothing anyway due to the lack of pine forests that support them. There are plenty of broadleaved woodlands being regenerated and planted but not many native pine forests.
At the end of the day greys will not be totally eradicated, as will not japenese knot weed etc. They are here to stay as they are so successful at adapting. Thats the reds downful, it doesn't have the ability to adapt to keep up with change. I love the reds dearly but I feel its too little too late. I think we can isolate the colonies we have but I don't think we can expand. It isn't feasible with so much urban sprawl and lack of funds and time (as in woodlands maturing) for them to increase in range. aLthough obviously northern Britain is much better equiped for the reds. Even if we reverse fragmentation and reduce grey numbers the reds still have a battle as like I said before, broadleaf is priority for 'the powers that be' at present as they have decided it has a broader biodiversity value than pines etc.
Maybe we can set up some kind of immigration scheme for greys to head south

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by ripplingwave

Its not a cop out at all, some people on this planet would rather die than kill another being (unless it is suffering), I am one of those people. Its my personal choice.
Im not stupid, I know that greys need controlling but I am not going to actively support culling on my moral grounds.

As we noted last time we had this discussion there is no effective way of controlling greys other than by lethal means - squirell contraceptive is experimental, ineffective, and too expensive to be used widely, and tranqualiser darts apart from being prohibitively expensive to deploy would also cause significant blunt trauma to an animal the size of the squirell (which is why zoos dont use them on bush babies , Tamarins etc) - meaning that any squirell hit but not recovered (for instance if it fell into a tree or into dense brush) would effectively be condemmed to a lingering , inhumane death.

a .222 frangible round on the other hand blows a hole about the size of your fist causing virtually instanaenous death from shock or blood loss from a hit anywhere on the body.

I tend to agree with you about the unlikelyhood of reds spreading across britain , but it is necessary to cull greys arround the surviving red areas to isolate and protect them - it is also necessary to control grey numbers nationally to protect the wider woodland ecosystem and to protect the livelyhoods of those who depend on woodsman ship or forestry for their incomes.

I dont like to kill , nor do i believe that it is ethically correct to kill for fun or for sport - however I do believe that where it is necessary to kill for reasons such as those mentioned above then if I am going to advocate such action I should be willing to do it myself however distasteful i find it - as it is morraly indeffensible to expect others to do what one is unwilling to do.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Seajay

You are entitled to your opinion but I cannot agree with you. Yes they are intelligent, lovely for the kids to watch but don't let the kids see the squirrels pulling young birds from their nests one by one (not for food just to kill). Taking one for food is fine, thats nature. Magpies also do this and foxes in a chicken run will kill for the sake of it. Unusual in the animal world I believe. I cannot say this is normal behaviour for these species but something I have observed in my life. It could be rogue species for all I know or perhaps they were moving the nestlings to get at something else? I would not advocate eradicating anything, however the grey squirrel was introduced to this country by man, has been incredibly successful and has become a pest (as I am given to understand) in many areas. If this begins to upset the delicate balance of a region then surely control measures should be taken? For example, if your house was overrun with rats what would you do?

You right, evryone is entitled to there opinion. The world would be a boring place if we all agread.
As you say Squirrells are not the only animals that kill for no reason. But I exspect Cats kill way more and do way more damage to young birds than Squirrels ever could, and whats to say they kill because of compitition. Foxes are another thing entierly.
As you say they where introduced by man and have done well, but that does'nt meen man should also kill them.

I agrea things should be done to control them and help the reds but killing the greys is not always the arnser and is a wast of money.

Originally Posted by mh68

A few other spots where you can see Reds in the northeast....

Bolam Lake Country Park
Gosforth park nature reserve(membership req`d)
Arcot Hall area, Cramlington

I find it disturbing that some feel that because Grey Squirrels are cute and cuddly that the damage they have done to the native Red Squirrel population should be overlooked, and action not be taken.Plenty of people regard Mink as cute etc etc but does that negate the damage they`ve done to Water Vole numbers for example? Not at all, when alien species pose a threat to native fauna then action has to be taken, no matter how unsavoury it may appear. Gosforth Park, for example (run by the Northumberland Natural History Society) operates a strict policy of culling any Greys that make it into the reserve.Due to this, the Red Squirrel population remains intact, despite Greys being present in most areas surrounding the reserve. Without such action being taken, it is unlikely that the population of Reds in the reserve would be present in anything near the numbers they are currently, if at all.
Apologies if this seems a bit strong, being my first post and all that, but you have to be realistic when native species are under threat.

Mark H

I agrea completely, there does need to be control but erradicating them, is not the arnser. The money is being spent in the wrong place.

Originally Posted by Uncle_Filthster

Spot on Mark. If there is one thing I can't stand and that is a fluffy bunny hugging "Aww wuk at duh cute wickle animal" mentality.
The only thing a tree rat is good for is making socks, gloves, hats and going on the barbie with a bit of garlic and herbs.

As Mark says Gosforth Park has a culling programme that seems to be working at the moment but this was not the case in one of the Denes I used to manage where the greys completley eliminated reds within about 2 years and spread down towards our red squirrel reserve and been seen lurking around the nearby allotments and running down the road through peoples gardens. Not good! Needless to say Council red tape got in the way of actually organising a cull.

I bet there wouldn't be such fondness Dahn Sahf for greys if there were many reds down there or if it happened to be a non native spider or other non cute n cuddly animal doing the damage.
Oh, how some peoples heads are completely warped by a bit of fur! Don't hurt the poor little animal!

Everyone should become a trapper and wipe em out! The song on the link below shall be the grey squirrel trappers anthem!

YouTube - canibal the musical trapper song

how can anyone be so speshest (sp)
murdering something just because of a mistack made over 100yrs ago is just wrong, and I would say that no matter what the animal looked like.

Originally Posted by Adam Cheeseman

"Such fun, intelligent animals, certainly not vermin."

You would't say that if you had to keep clearing up after them when they've emptied your rubbish bins - and I know it's them because I've watched them doing it.

Cheers,

Adam

maybe you need a better bin, that you can lock the lid.
Cat are murderous, evil killing masheins. I hate them but I would'nt wipe them out.

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

Or if you had lost half a hillside of trees and part of your and your children's livelyhood due to squirrels ring barking the trees.......

could have been dear

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by ripplingwave

I would get a cat....

I have hand reared greys and seen the damage they can cause but I don't believe any human has the right to take a life of another living being, especially when we caused the problem. Its an evolutionary fact that that succession does and will happen if left unmanaged by humans, species become extinct, species evolve and adapt and there is usually (not always) something else to replace its niche. If the human race hadn't taken over control of the earth it would be a very different place! (wonders what it would look like)Yes they can be pests and yes they can kill a whole nest of birds, but thats nature right? They are only pests to humans (oh no! My roof has a hole in it coz of that darn squirrel)because they have had to adapt to living in habitats we have encroached on and as said many times before, it was us that introduced them. The red squirrels decline is not just due to the greys, they are part of the cause but not wholly. I suppose at least fragmentation has had ONE positive effect and thats to isolate the remaining reds!

NOOOOOOOOOO not a cat

nice to see I not the only one that likes greys for what they are.

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

Please god they don't start widespread removal of mixed woodland for non-native conifer plantations this would be disasterous for hundreds if not thousands of other species. They could potentialy plant such plantations, but I don't think greys would stay out, you'd have to keep them out, and of course such plantations would take decades to mature by which point the red may only exist in captivity.

I saw that program it sort of explains why they end up ring barking so many trees where I was in south wales as it was mostly plantation where I was. As explained I guess it's because there's not enough energy in the cones for them. I don't think just changing the tree type is enough to protect the reds, it's always going to be a combination of control and habitat manipulation in order to stop the red going extinct I think.


My personal feeling is that if you are trying to protect the rare and the vulnerable and it's being destroyed by something common and widespread then yes in those specific areas (not necessarily national extermination) the destructive species should be controlled.

Also if your livelyhood in terms of crops or trees, which are useful products for all of us, are being destroyed by a common and widespread species these should be controlled.
Always in as humane a way as possible and actually in terms of rabbit, pigeon and even squirrel this is then good free range meat from an animal that has lived a wild life on it's own terms, I don't like the idea of a wasted life, I would prefer all of the animal to be utilised and not just chucked on a bonfire or in the bin, I'm not vegetarian nor will I ever be, but I believe in being respectful of the life that has been taken on my behalf. I'm really only uncomfortable when animals are killed for no reason at all with no benefits arising from their death or their lives taken flippantly or an animalis allowed to suffer.

The countryside and its wildlife is a massively complex and vulnerable web and the 'just let it be' method of management I don't feel can work in this country because we've already altered it and upset the balance so much, - mainly in terms of habitat loss, we are left with a crazy juggling act just to keep what we have.....

I can't help but feel that for water voles and red squirrel it may already be too late but if we just sit back and do nothing, this will certainly be the case. I personally could not sit back and watch mistakes we have made result in the loss of these species.

Great post. will add though that Red Squirrels are not an endangered speshes as a hole, in euroupe there known as the Common Squirrel.



I know humans have been wiping out animals for what 1000's of years, they can't stop interfering, and they also can't stop breeding there taking over the planet. I think we need to start culling them.

[Digifrog]

I agree, how can you not love a grey?



True some sort of control program is needed in places where the indigenous reds need to thrive, but setting traps to kill innocent animals isnt the answer. Though I would suspect that a sterilization program near these areas would be more acceptable.

As sentimented above, cats are more of a problem and a nuisance.

[Adam Cheeseman]

Originally Posted by Digifrog

I agree, how can you not love a grey?

If there's not enough gravy they can taste a bit ropey!