Unidentified poo/tracks, please help!

moog · #1 (**permalink**) 06-04-2011, 11:08 AM

Hello all,
I have been lurking here for a little while trying to build up a bit of knowledge, but this is my first post.

I was walking today in some very dense pine forest, and came across a few interesting signs of life, but wasn't able to positively identify any of them, I would love it if someone could help. Sorry if I'm posting this in the wrong place, or asking an obvious or stupid question!

The forest is very dense pine, with the trees planted in regular lines some chopped down near the outskirts. There are several small streams running through the trees, and I also noticed one large, fast flowing stream (about 1.5-2m in width). Inside the forest quite springy and wet in places with dropped pine needles with a very boggy area surrounding the forest. Surrounding the forest is quite a bleak, scrubby area, a slate slag heap on one side and the foothills of a mountain on another, nearest (small) village about a mile or two away.

Things I found:

Some scattered bones of an animal I couldn't identify. There was another identical bone to the one pictured here.
Mostly eaten dead crow on the forest floor in a very dense area.
Lots of scratched bark (mainly between 4.5 and 6 feet up) exposing a lot of sap.
Small poos, as pictured, oval shaped and about 4cm long and 2cm wide, green-y brown coloured and lots of hair in them. I also saw some others, near the large stream mentioned above which clearly showed tiny (1cm average, very thin) bones in them (i couldn't tell whether they were fish or some small rodent) and some with what looked like beetle shells in them. No noticeable smell, certainly not unpleasant.
Footprints, as pictured. These were in mud at the side of the large stream leading back into the forest, unfortunately I didn't have a ruler and don't have one on me now, but i estimate the footprints were about 6cm long.

Apologies for typing so much, but I wanted to make sure I didn't miss out any possibly relevant information. I don't really have much experience of small mammals and would love it if someone here could point me in the right direction. Oh, and if it is of any help/relevance, there was a confirmed spotting of a pine marten here a couple of months ago.

bigdave60dog · #2 (**permalink**) 06-04-2011, 11:34 AM

The marks on the tree sound very much like deer markings but are bit high.
The poo looks like Fox poo but is bit small. Feral Cat a possibility but in these situations with everything together always first "think Mink". When you have eliminated mink you may have something really interesting.
Badgers always poo in little scrapes in the ground. Most other carnivores except for cats like to poo in places where the smell will act as marker.
Thats good start
Dave

The Woodman · #3 (**permalink**) 06-04-2011, 11:40 AM

Hi moog and welcome to WAB.

You've set the scene well, are you in Scotland or the north of England?

The prints are indistinct as they're in a wetish mud that doesn't preserve the outline but the size is right for Pine Marten and possibly the side by side prints indicative of it's bounding gait.

I can't see a bone in your images, the remains of the crow was probably eaten by a fox but PM's eat carrion too.

PM and fox scats are very similar and difficult to ID. I was assisting with PM surveying on the west coast of Scotland a couple of weeks ago and all scats were DNA tested. My batch turned out to be 50/50 PM/fox.

If you are in England, the VWT would like to hear of your finds, they can be found at Pine Martens - The Vincent Wildlife Trust

I would say your scats are either fox or PM. I've also seen a number of PM dens in trees and can say that I've never seen scratch marks deep enough to cause the tree to bleed sap. That's not to say it doesn't happen of course.

There's a couple of PM print/feet images in my Gallery for reference.

nightshade · #4 (**permalink**) 06-04-2011, 11:42 AM

Roughly were was this wood moog? Woodman beat me to it, I was thinking Pine martin

vole-woman · #5 (**permalink**) 06-04-2011, 12:10 PM

Not that I have ever smelt pine martin poo, but it's supposed to smell sweetish and even 'of parma violets'.

bigdave60dog · #6 (**permalink**) 06-04-2011, 12:31 PM

Yeah, Pine Marten was what I had in mind by "interesting". It`s a real possibility.
The info about fox and Pine Marten Faeces was fascinating. Is this stuff published? Most Woodsmen swear that they can tell the difference.
We don`t get either in Orkney. Before I moved I used to get called out to folk with "Whats` been eating my fish? whats this making a nest in my loft,pooing in my shed eating these snails" etc.
I learned to eliminate Ratty or Minky before anything else as nine times out of ten one of these or Reynard the fox would be the culprit. We can eliminate Ratty here.
I suppose that I must sound a bit cynical but from long experience Ratty, Reynard and Minky will always be "The Usual Suspects" unless you have body.
Dave

moog · #7 (**permalink**) 06-04-2011, 03:44 PM

Thanks for all your swift and helpful replies!
With regards to the marks on the tree, a few of the trees were displaying bark that was coming away naturally, so it's likely that whatever had made the scratches hadn't had to get through the outer layer of bark, the wood was probably already exposed.

The wood is in North Wales, and I'm pretty sure there aren't any deer in the area, and though there have been a few on Anglesey I've heard from a reliable source that this area is still free from mink (one of the reasons otters are doing quite well here apparently), although I couldn't say myself 100% that there aren't any.

I had a look at your photos Woodman, they're really clear! I might try and print out a copy and head back up after a couple of dry days to see if I can find any more distinct prints to compare with.

After reading your responses, I'm inclined to think it's a toss up between fox or pine marten, but I'd be keen to try and figure it out. Is there anything I should be looking out for if I go up again?

bigdave60dog · #8 (**permalink**) 07-04-2011, 08:20 AM

Pine Martens will take prey eg. Rabbits up trees to eat (or into your loft if you have them there) look for bits of fur and feathers in trees. I have some family in the c Central Highlands where there are loads of Pine Martens (which is why I know about Martens in lofts). We don`t have them in Orkney (no trees). I am sure that someone will put you right but I can soon find out if you need any more info.
Dave

nige · #9 (**permalink**) 07-04-2011, 10:21 AM

Without being able to examine the area, I would say Fox first, the print are in soft mud so have a smaller appearance and most mustelids have a twisted tapered scat. another point is a fox has four toes as apposed to five if this helps.

moog · #10 (**permalink**) 07-04-2011, 01:31 PM

Cheers for the tips guys, I'm going to go up again soon and take another look so that'll be interesting stuff to keep an eye out.

I spoke to a lady at the Vincent Wildlife Trust yesterday afternoon who happened to have already seen this thread and was quite interested so she has asked me to take a sample for DNA testing to see whether it's fox or pm. I'm not getting my hopes up, but I'm finding the process of figuring it out quite interesting either way (and learning a lot!), and it would just be a lovely bonus if it turned out to be a pine marten.

I'll keep you posted on any news either way!