Mountain Hare cull

[diggleken]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

If you read my post again Ken I was suggesting that mountain hare numbers would be vastly reduced if it were not for grouse moors. If you feel your 'stroll around the South Pennines' has totally discredited this suggestion, perhaps you should report your findings to Macaulay Land Use Research Institute, The Game Conservancy Trust, SNH, etc. as they appear to have spent a great deal of needless time and money researching the subject.

Cheers
Jonathan

Smart reply, I like that.
Still rubbish though, vested interests still rule, but I'm not going to repeat myself any further, I've made my point.
Cheers
Ken

[RoyW]

Originally Posted by diggleken

Smart reply, I like that.
Still rubbish though, vested interests still rule, but I'm not going to repeat myself any further, I've made my point.
Cheers
Ken

There is no doubt that there are vested interests, but that doesn't take anything away from Jonathans point. Regardless of whether there is good justification for shooting the hares because of a perceived threat to the financial interests of grouse shooting, it is possible that despite the numbers shot we still have more Mountain Hares because of grouse moor management than we would otherwise have but this isn't justification for shooting them if they aren't causing any problems (in some ways I'm surprised that they are conserved as a "target species" - probably wouldn't bring in anywhere near as much revenue).

Originally Posted by diggleken

On a stroll around the south pennines only a couple of days ago a good number of hares and also a good number of grouse were seen - whilst not conclusive, that does indicate they are comfortable together in the same area in good numbers - other observations over many years support that too.

...or does this show that because they occur together they is a good potential for parasites (ie. disease bearing ticks) to be transferred between the two species?

Originally Posted by diggleken

This in an area that is only very low key, if at all, managed for game shooting, now taken over to a large extent at Dovestones by the RSPB.
That also disproves the theory that managing moor tends to help Hares too - its more the available habitat in my experience - they can also manage quite happily without Heather.

How does this disprove anything? Do you think that the RSPB don't manage the moorland that they have taken over - following very similar practices to those used on grouse shooting moors?

Originally Posted by diggleken

Another point that is largely unnoticed is that Lepus timidus will congregate and thrive round cover such as rocks, exactly where you would not expect to see Grouse, which are normally on open moor.

If the hares stayed in areas that weren't used by grouse (including habitat without heather, although this is also used by grouse), then there clearly wouldn't be any justifcation for shooting hares for the given reason - even without the evidence that culling hares has little effect on the potential tranmission of louping-ill virus.

[pda15]

It is simple:

1) Managed grouse moors lead to more Mountain Hares

2) More Mountain Hares means they become a problem to the keepers

3) Because they are a problem they are culled

The cullers tend to emphasise point 1 but it is frankly doubtful if the species benefits greatly from management that improves its habitat enabling it to increase its numbers and then kills it because its numbers have increased!

[RoyW]

A fair summary pda! (and welcome to WAB).

Whether or not the species benefits in cases like this obviously depends on (a) the numbers that unmanaged grouse moors support compared with (b) the numbers that remain on managed grouse moors despite the culling.

If b is more than a then there is a net benefit to the species (although individuals might be at more risk).

[mammalrecorder]

That seems to sum it up.

Nice dragon btw.

[diggleken]

Originally Posted by pda15

It is simple:

1) Managed grouse moors lead to more Mountain Hares

2) More Mountain Hares means they become a problem to the keepers

3) Because they are a problem they are culled

The cullers tend to emphasise point 1 but it is frankly doubtful if the species benefits greatly from management that improves its habitat enabling it to increase its numbers and then kills it because its numbers have increased!

OK, whether we accept point 1 is moot, but certainly agree with the conclusion.........
It might help though if contributors know about the species rather than just read reports.
Cheers
Ken

[Meta menardi]

Do the Grouse get the ticks from the hares or the other way round? I suspect the answer is "neither, they are both one of a number of reservoirs of ticks".

MIxed grouse and hare shooting, anyone? Bags not be a beater..

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by diggleken

OK, whether we accept point 1 is moot

'We'? So far, you appear to be the only person who doesn't accept that managed grouse moors lead to more Mountain Hares.

Originally Posted by diggleken

It might help though if contributors know about the species rather than just read reports.

Care to enlighten us how you can possibly know that statement's true? Come on Ken, let's get on with the discussion rather than making petty remarks.

Cheers
Jonathan

[Cowgirl]

Originally Posted by diggleken

Awww how could anybody shoot him, he looks so sweet.

Sorry to interrupt, not paying attention to the thread much, just loved the photo, thanks Ken

[STYRBJORN]

There is a wider point here. Although H.sap has driven only too many species to extinction, there are some wild species which have become far more populous than would otherwise be the case, as a result of agriculture. Rabbit, wood pigeon, collared dove, many corvids are perhaps the most obvious. These are all classed as pests and be controlled by any legal method at any time. The situation with hares and grouse looks different at first glance but how different is it really? I am for once trying to make a serious point here!

Bu the way, when hares are "culled" the method of choice is the shotgun. The resulting bodies tend to be inedible, being full of lead shot. If I shoot a hare in season with a rifle I go for a head shot. I shoot two at most, for my own consumption.

Ric