Domestication of dogs

[STYRBJORN]

WELL of course dogs laugh at us. It only took them a few hundred years to teach us how to open a can of Pedigree Chum. 6,000,000 years of primate evolution and we can just about peel a banana! No contest.

Ric

[STYRBJORN]

I have to say that I am thoroughly sceptical about that 100,000BP figure for domestication. Mitochondrial and nuclear gene clock rates are invaluable tools for measuring variation in wild populations under the pressure of natural selection. They are meaningless for evolution rates under pressure of anthropogenic selection. Darwin himself realised this, hence his emphasis in the development of types of pigeon. Anthropogenic selection substitutes for time. We need only look at the ongoing work with Arctic foxes to see how quickly breeding purely for tameness produced a suite of changes that have led to foxes that act like pet dogs. On a more malign note, we have unwittingly bred lethal strains of bacteria such as MRSA in the course of a few years of sloppy hygeine. Even allowing for the high breeding rate of bacteria, that is a far faster rate of development than would occur under natural natural selection pressures.

Subject to modification with better evidence I support the figure of 15,000yrs, at the start of the current Interglacial.

Ric

[tcvarlh]

Ric,
I too find the number 100 000 years somewhat amazing. But, perhaps 15 000 years is a good number for humans' active selection process of dogs. Perhaps natural selection worked in the same way that certain deer and monkeys in India co-operate today, warning each other of predators. Wolf/dogs and humans tolerating each other for some mutual benefit. I don't know.

Have you read this article : Fossil in Swiss city of Schaffhausen may belong to oldest dog in the world. - swissinfo

Importantly the researchers are not 100% certain as to what they actually have,
how up to date this article is in reality I cannot say. The small side article is also interesting.

ed.
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/07/oldest_dog/
h

[STYRBJORN]

h -
Thanks for that. Dogged pursuit of canine fossils indeed!
It does look as though there have been two phases involved in domestication. First wolves adapted physically to a scavenging role aroumd human settlements. That may well have occurred during a glaciation when food was scarce. Then at the end of the glaciation, Man started deliberately to adapt the - shall we call them pi dogs? - to his own purposes. As you suggest, mutual domestication, physically for dogs, socio-economically for Man.

Ric

[Cowgirl]

What about when humans were hunting, herding things over the cliffs, would wolves have picked up on this & 'helped' with the herding and were rewarded (or not killed) when scavenging the kill site, eventually men seeing the usefulness of woves doing this, would train young woves to assist them etc etc ?

[STYRBJORN]

Originally Posted by Cowgirl

What about when humans were hunting, herding things over the cliffs, would wolves have picked up on this & 'helped' with the herding and were rewarded (or not killed) when scavenging the kill site, eventually men seeing the usefulness of woves doing this, would train young woves to assist them etc etc ?

Perfectly valid idea, but still postulates C15,000 BP for the process to get started. By the same token, sub-Arctic populations of wolves and humans could have co-operated for mutual benefit in hunting seals. Wolves chase 'em in, men kill 'em, take the good cuts, then leave the carcasses for the wolves.

Did someone say "Nature red in tooth and claw"?

Ric