Pine Marten - How many are there?

[Blizzard]

Just wondered if anyone had up to date information on how many Pine Marten there are now?

I've found figures of 3 to 4,000 with about the same number in Ireland and other figures of 2,600 to 3,500 in Scotland with 5 to 8,000 in Ireland.

I believe they are steadily increasing and spreading in their range, in particular from NW Scotland into NE Scotland. I'm certainly seeing a lot of what I'm fairly certain are Pine Marten scats and have had a few local sightings.

[Hedera]

Look up the Vincent Wildlife Trust: they do a lot of work on Pine martens.

[Blizzard]

Originally Posted by Hedera

Look up the Vincent Wildlife Trust: they do a lot of work on Pine martens.

I did . Their figures are one lot that I used. I just wondered how up to date they were and whether there had been increases since those figures.

[Dogghound]

What date are you figures from?

It can be very hard to predict population sizes so estimates vary greatly, I know that this species is increasing in population and range, likely through habitat quality being improved and persecution becoming less common.

[Blizzard]

Originally Posted by Dogghound

What date are you figures from?

That's what I don't know. I was wondering if they were up to date figures or not and thought it possible that someone here might know. I think I shall have to look more closely at the VWT site and see what I can find out.

Originally Posted by Dogghound

It can be very hard to predict population sizes so estimates vary greatly, I know that this species is increasing in population and range, likely through habitat quality being improved and persecution becoming less common.

I thought that it would be difficult to get an exact(ish) estimate as really that is the most that can be achieved. Unfortunately the link on the VWT site for information about research papers on the Pine Marten doesn't work .

I'd hoped I'd get more info from there. I'll have to do more googling.

[Rob_D]

http://www.jncc.gov.uk/pdf/pub03_are...mammalsall.pdf

I think the paper above contains the reference to the figure of 3500 for Scotland, published in 1995.

That's the figure also quoted in the Mammals of British Isles, 4th Edition, so I guess it the most up to date estimate. Surveying such an elusive animal must be tricky, so I can see why it's not been done frequently! There's nothing else more recent I can see. JNCC, Tracking Mammals Partnership or VWT would be best places to look.

I bought VWT's excellent report on Pine Martens in England and Wales. It has some interesting info on what limits their populations - eg the need for old growth trees or substitute "vertical environments" to help avoid predators, especially foxes.

I'm off next week to North Yorks to help look for scat!

[stigofthedump]

Originally Posted by Rob_D

I'm off next week to North Yorks to help look for scat!

Would that be with the VWT Rob?

Vince

[Blizzard]

Originally Posted by Rob_D

http://www.jncc.gov.uk/pdf/pub03_are...mammalsall.pdf

I think the paper above contains the reference to the figure of 3500 for Scotland, published in 1995.

That's the figure also quoted in the Mammals of British Isles, 4th Edition, so I guess it the most up to date estimate. Surveying such an elusive animal must be tricky, so I can see why it's not been done frequently! There's nothing else more recent I can see. JNCC, Tracking Mammals Partnership or VWT would be best places to look.

I bought VWT's excellent report on Pine Martens in England and Wales. It has some interesting info on what limits their populations - eg the need for old growth trees or substitute "vertical environments" to help avoid predators, especially foxes.

I'm off next week to North Yorks to help look for scat!

Many thanks for the link Rob. I can see I'm going to read the whole thing not just the Pine Marten bit. Even on the Executive Summary they are saying how difficult it can be to do these surveys.

I hope you enjoy your scat hunt and have some success. It would be nice to hear about how it went when you get back!

[Rob_D]

Yes, it was with the VWT. I went around Boltby and Dalby Forests. Both seem to have pretty good habitat. Dalby was busy with people at this time of year, so any Martens would have to be tolerant of that.

I collected about 12 scats, though none I'd say were "classic" shape for mustelid. There were clearly a few foxes around to confuse things. VWT have sent them off to a lab and the DNA results will take a few weeks/months & would be great if someone got a positive result. Surely there's at least one in the 260 they got in the last few weeks? I'm sure the VWTs blog will have the good news if they do get a hit

I realised how hard finding Pine Marten scat could be - Dalby is 9000 hectares. If there were only 10 martens in the forest, that's 900 hecatares each! A huge area to find small scat. If the martens always scat in accessible, prominent places, there's a better chance but otherwise, we might need alot of luck to find it. If they were restricted to waterways like Otters, it'd be far easier, but in the forests there are so many potential features they might choose to mark.

VWT's report suggested that martens living at low population densities (like possibly in England and Wales) might not spend so much time marking territories as those in denser areas like Scotland. Hence the difficulty in detecting them through their scat marking.

Still, if you don't look, you don't find, so it wasn't wasted effort I feel. Very much enjoyed being out in the forests, and even managed to avoid the rain.

[rossbells]

Didn't think there was that many in Ireland hopefully I see one some day