Pine Marten - How many are there?

[Dogghound]

There is potentially a population near sutton bank in North Yorkshire. Never heard of them in Dalby though, or seen any signs.

[Rob_D]

There were a couple of sightings in Dalby from 1996 and 2004. It does seem now very well used, but the Forestry Commission guys suggested some less disturbed areas to search. There were also recorded sightings in Broxa, Wykeham, Langdale and Cropton in the last 20 years. That area seems to be something of a hot-spot. I understand Martens can disperse long distances, so perhaps they move around between these forests.

[Dogghound]

It is perfect habitat especially Wykeham and Broxa. Dalby is very large an some areas are likely to have little disturbance as im sure you know. They did put up aload of nest boxes but didnt get a thing. Very interesting I didnt know that there were sightings in there. These other smaller forests would be ideal for them as you say these are all within a short distance of each other and dispersal is possible. I know that there was a confirmed population in 1925 in Hackness about 5 miles away from these forests.

[Rob_D]

I wonder how sensitive to human disturbance they are in these forests in England? In Scotland I know that Glencoe has them present in areas with loads of people - like the back of the hotel!

I still never saw the Martens in Glencoe though..... have to go back again.

[Dogghound]

To be honest im not to sure they are any more sensitive than most other mustelids, they nest in roofs and in urban areas in parts of their range. They do tend to be very nocturnal but the same can be said for otters.

[RKB]

Originally Posted by Rob_D

I bought VWT's excellent report on Pine Martens in England and Wales. It has some interesting info on what limits their populations - eg the need for old growth trees or substitute "vertical environments" to help avoid predators, especially foxes.

Begs the question of how they survived in their thousands in Ireland, where deforestation has been almost total until 40 years ago. Scotland is also much less forested than England. That's the problem with relict populations - habitat requirement studies may only really tell you about the habitat where they remain, rather than what they require. If someone did a habitat study on Red Kites or Polecats 30 years ago it would be pretty misleading, ditto Crested Tit or Wildcat today.

[larachmor]

Originally Posted by RKB

Scotland is also much less forested than England.

Scotland less forested than England ??
Scotland's Forestry, proportional to area, is double that of England's.

[RKB]

Originally Posted by larachmor

Scotland less forested than England ??
Scotland's Forestry, proportional to area, is double that of England's.

You're right, Scotland currently has more tree cover as a ratio of land area. But only very recently has that become the case (Scotland went down to low single figures of tree cover for much of the 19th and 20th Centuries). And the vast majority of the modern tree cover is non-native conifer plantation which is cropped at about 30-60 years old. England has, throughout history, had a higher percentage of mature and/or native forest, and a much greater absolute area of woodland cover. My point, I suppose, is that England has held much more Pine Marten habitat than Scotland.

[Blizzard]

Originally Posted by Rob_D

I collected about 12 scats, though none I'd say were "classic" shape for mustelid. There were clearly a few foxes around to confuse things. VWT have sent them off to a lab and the DNA results will take a few weeks/months & would be great if someone got a positive result. Surely there's at least one in the 260 they got in the last few weeks? I'm sure the VWTs blog will have the good news if they do get a hit

I realised how hard finding Pine Marten scat could be - Dalby is 9000 hectares. If there were only 10 martens in the forest, that's 900 hecatares each! A huge area to find small scat. If the martens always scat in accessible, prominent places, there's a better chance but otherwise, we might need alot of luck to find it. If they were restricted to waterways like Otters, it'd be far easier, but in the forests there are so many potential features they might choose to mark.

VWT's report suggested that martens living at low population densities (like possibly in England and Wales) might not spend so much time marking territories as those in denser areas like Scotland. Hence the difficulty in detecting them through their scat marking.

Still, if you don't look, you don't find, so it wasn't wasted effort I feel. Very much enjoyed being out in the forests, and even managed to avoid the rain.

Thanks for reporting back on how you got on. I think you're probably right about low density populations marking territories less.

Will you be personally informed of the results of the DNA results or is it just best to keep an eye on the VWT site?

Sounds like you enjoyed it.. I'm sure I would have too... and at least you didn't get wet lol.