Badger: "Eradication" is a misnomer

[Hobjob]

A Rant from a pedant

I have learnt a lot from other threads about the intended Badger cull.

I do wish people wold stop using the word eradication though.

There is not a chance of actually eradicating bTB - Medicine made this mistake twenty years ago thinking that TB was so rare in UK that we had licked it; but AIDS and immigration with overcrowding brought it back again.
(And I bet at some point we will bring back BCG for kids/adolescents)

However successful the cull proves to be (assuming it goes ahead), there will still be bTB around in enough amounts to cause a comeback.

Rant over

Can someone point me to a good site that reviews the evidence for the effectiveness of the new vaccine. I find it hard to believe that a bTB vaccine will be any more efficacious that the human BCG - which was one of the least effective vaccines (used in its loose meaning) ever used.

[Eryri]

It is here...

Vaccination of badgers against bovine TB - The Veterinary Record

You need to be a member of the BVA or pay a subscription, and on doing so are legally bound by commercial copywrite as the data contained is owned by the holder of the supplier of the vaccine.

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Dr Christianne Glossop, the chief veterinary officer for Wales, says based on the most recent publications, the efficacy to prevent infection by injecting with the latest vaccine can be up to 80% in badgers who do not have or never had bTB. In those badgers that have or have had bTB, the efficacy is 0%, and remain carriers which can infect cattle.

As a result of the successful Badger Trust's legal action this week, vaccinating badgers in the whole of Wales in now illegal. There are no plans to now pass a vaccination-only eradication order in Wales as in the 'hotspot' one in four badgers are already infected and the vaccine will not work.

Hope this helps.

[GavinWheeler]

Originally Posted by Eryri

As a result of the successful Badger Trust's legal action this week, vaccinating badgers in the whole of Wales in now illegal.

Not true - you would still need a license to trap badgers (whether to cull or vaccinate) but that was apparently always the case - even under the TB Eradication Order. But vaccination with a license is perfectly legal.

All that was lost due to the Judicial Review decision was Elin Jones' right to send people onto your land without your permission or even against your will. So she might actually have to work with the local people, not just dictate to them what they must allow on their own land.

This is a problem for a cull, since despite Eryri's contention that 98% of landowners welcomed a cull it is clear that WAG would be very unlikely to get voluntary access to anything like the 60% of land they claim to need for a cull.

On the other hand:

a) a vaccination programme would probably get near 100% voluntary access
b) in any case vaccination does not cause perturbation, so does not become harmful if you have less than ideal land access

Originally Posted by Eryri

There are no plans to now pass a vaccination-only eradication order in Wales as in the 'hotspot' one in four badgers are already infected and the vaccine will not work.

There are no immediate plans to pass any TB order, as Elin Jones needs time to consider her options and the Senedd will be closed for the summer. It has nothing to to with TB rates in the N Pembs hotspot.

Nor do "one in four badgers" have TB in N Pembs - according to the badgers found dead survey, only 15% of badgers have TB in the area, and that is almost certainly an overestimate as elderly or sick badgers are more likely to both get killed on the road and to have TB.

Even if 25% of badgers had TB, that would still indicate that 75% did not (and the true figure is at least 85%) and so would be protected by a vaccine.

[Eryri]

Originally Posted by GavinWheeler

Not true - you would still need a license to trap badgers (whether to cull or vaccinate) but that was apparently always the case - even under the TB Eradication Order. But vaccination with a license is perfectly legal.

You are welcome to come onto my land and inject the badgers without capturing them, Gavin. Do you use the blow-dart technique of the Masai Mara people ?

[Eryri]

Originally Posted by GavinWheeler

All that was lost due to the Judicial Review decision was Elin Jones' right to send people onto your land without your permission or even against your will. So she might actually have to work with the local people, not just dictate to them what they must allow on their own land.

Of the 1500 local landowners effected 98% of them welcomed the sett survey. Just because you are part of the 2% who objected, does not mean local people were against.

Access to your land will be conducted again by the government usually within the next six months, whether you like it or not. It will be done under the Tuberculosis (Testing and Powers of Entry) (Wales) Order 2008. This still stands. Any infected cattle found on your farm will be dealt with accordingly.

If you try to prevent access again, you may be arrested

[Eryri]

I suppose it's possible pass an order to vaccinate badgers in parts of Wales where the badgers are of low density and tend not to already have bTB. But those area's are where there are few cattle or low incidences of bTB in cattle. Pointless exercise. The vaccine would only have been very useful in the hotspot after a cull, but that cannot happen, at the moment.

[Eryri]

Originally Posted by GavinWheeler

Nor do "one in four badgers" have TB in N Pembs - according to the badgers found dead survey, only 15% of badgers have TB in the area, and that is almost certainly an overestimate as elderly or sick badgers are more likely to both get killed on the road and to have TB.

Latest infection rates (from the survey) of North Pembrokeshire badgers and cattle were discussed at the Senedd plenary, yesterday.....

Latest Senedd debate - Badger Cull

I still cannot understand your theory that an infected badger is more likely choose to throw itself in front of a car, than a non-infected one. Surely such cognitive thinking by badgers would enable them to book an appointment at the vet.

[GavinWheeler]

Originally Posted by Eryri

You are welcome to come onto my land and inject the badgers without capturing them, Gavin.

You seem to be more than usually disconnected from the truth - I just said very clearly that you do need a license to trap the badgers in order to vaccinate them.

What you don't need is right of forced entry or powers of arrest over anyone who disagrees with you - which is what Elin Jones lost at the Judicial Review appeal. Instead you just need to talk to people in an adult manner and secure their voluntary cooperation.

Originally Posted by Eryri

Of the 1500 local landowners effected 98% of them welcomed the sett survey. Just because you are part of the 2% who objected, does not mean local people were against.

No - the fact that most of the local people I talk to are against means that local people are against. You yourself quoted the news report that over 100 landowners had actually refused entry to sett surveyors - even before they got to the 'hardcore' villains such as myself and Brithdir.

Again, kindly provide evidence for your claim that 98% of landowners down here "welcomed the sett survey" - note that 100 landowners actually refusing access means more than 2% who are so against the cull that they are willing to risk arrest.

Originally Posted by Eryri

Access to your land will be conducted again by the government usually within the next six months, whether you like it or not. It will be done under the Tuberculosis (Testing and Powers of Entry) (Wales) Order 2008. This still stands. Any infected cattle found on your farm will be dealt with accordingly.

If you try to prevent access again, you may be arrested.

I have no problem with testing cattle for TB, and this has little if anything to do with the cull. I can only assume that this is a little bit of gratuitous gloating - i.e. "ha ha, my girl Elin can still force access onto your land and arrest you if you oppose her."

It is sadly typical of the attitude that has been taken by the pro-cull side and especially the TB eradication team throughout this affair. Threats of arrest and right of forced access to private land should be the final resort and used judiciously, not waved around like a child's toy.

[GavinWheeler]

Originally Posted by Eryri

I suppose it's possible pass an order to vaccinate badgers in parts of Wales where the badgers are of low density and tend not to already have bTB.

Again, you don't need an Order to vaccinate, only to force entry without the landowner's permission.

Equally, WAG's own models show that vaccination is most effective (in terms of breakdowns prevented) when used in areas of high TB incidence.

Originally Posted by Eryri

The vaccine would only have been very useful in the hotspot after a cull, but that cannot happen, at the moment.

Actually, the vaccine would be most useful before the cull, if cull you must. Afterwards you have already doubled the level of TB in badgers, so the vaccine will be of less benefit to them.

[Eryri]

Originally Posted by GavinWheeler

Threats of arrest and right of forced access to private land should be the final resort and used judiciously, not waved around like a child's toy.

No. The law applies to you as it does to any other farmer/landowner.

There is no "final resort".

Access is granted by law, on the spot, to be carried out there and then, whether to prevent badger setts being disturbed to prevent a survey or a cow being removed to prevent testing or destruction.