Badger cull in Wales

[stripee]

Originally Posted by Eryri

Now you are grasping at straws, Gavin (forgive the pun). The TB Eradication (Wales) Order 2009 was passed by the full plenary of the Senedd. It specifically allows the cull of badgers and setting up of a cull area. I suggest that Dr Glossop is quite correct to say that the order allows the minister to decide NOT to cull. That is a provision in the legislation. It would be correct to say that the minister can decide not to cull in circumstances such as a fall in the badger population due to natural causes, or other factors to do with cattle immunity.

There are, of course, reasons why the likes of Peter Black AM and some others wish to demonise Elin Jones individually because she is a Plaid AM. You should note, however, that should Elin take on another ministerial role, the incumbent minister for Rural Affairs of whatever political party will also be bound by the statutory instrument passed by the full democratic vote of the Senedd.

As it happens, Elin Jones is loving the limelight in rural areas of Wales, as the cull is so popular. The leaders of the other political parties not in the coalition government such as Kirsty Williams AM (LibDems) and Nick Bourne AM (Conservative) who also voted for the cull, would love to be the minister, too.

Eryri, throughout the whole badger cull debate, Elin Jones has been the main point of contact for people's concerns, emails and letters as the Minister for Rural Affairs. Local AMs and MPs have also been contacted. Noone is specifically demonising Plaid (I in fact have voted for Plaid more than once, and liked my local Plaid MP, however it will be hard to persuade me to do so again). The Senedd consists of 60 members, this is a small number in democratic terms to make major decisions on behalf of people - only 30 odd in favour of any policy are needed for it to suceed. It is only the size of a large committee. Elin Jones and Christianne Glossop have been invited to speak at a future public meeting in North Pembs, because those who are upset need to have their voices heard by the Welsh Assembly and in order to verify there is opposition, which you, for instance, disbelieve. At the Newport meeting there were approx 300 people. It is all very well meeting unions and pro-cull farmers and agricultural shows surrounded by supporters - the WAG need to move out of their comfort zone and face the anger felt here by people affected.

Why are they angry? One reason is the compulsory access with firearms on people's property to kill badgers no matter their opinion. Most people believe they have the right to decide what happens on their property, this right has been removed by the WAG.

Another reason is a non selective cull of badgers which will see healthy animals destroyed. The people protesting are almost entirely people with an animal based diet, farmers, and different types of landowners. It is across the board. The North Pembs area is far from being all cattle farmers. Noone is suggesting a return to prehistory however the landscape could change, we have only been farming for several thousand years in Britain, during that period the landscape has changed radically. The Bronze Age for instance saw climate warming, deforestation and the rise of moorland. Badgers were here long before humans, their forest homes were cleared. Wolves are obviously not practical in our high density part of the country. The motor car does a fine job of killing badgers, along with increasing badger baiters. There are 61.4 million humans and rising (2008 figures)in the UK, there are estimated to be between 300-400 000 badgers. It is their European stronghold, and badgers in the UK have a social structure not seen in other parts of their range.

Bio diversity is excellent in some parts of the cull area, however since I have lived here there has been a decline in farmland birds and a total wipeout of pasture fungi such as the massive fairy rings of field mushrooms that one used to be able to collect in armfuls, and meadow flowers inc orchids on ordinary farmland. The majority of farms have green fields with nothing in them except grass and many have hedges circa 1 metre.

Some local farms who are now organic I know for a fact use to regularly pollute their streams and kill all the wildlife. The organic herds in NPembs are extremely large - 800 upwards for instance. When there were small farms many herds were approx 50-100 animals. Surely the decline of small farms and the trend to large farms whether organic or not is a reason that disease can spread more easily and costs farmers more when it strikes.

The Environmental Impact Assessment to be found on the Welsh Assembly web site cites concerns re removing a mammal such as the badger from the area. Their conclusion is that more foxes will take over the area, impacting on rabbit populations and ultimately on birds such as the chough. The killing of badgers can not be taken in isolation from its effects.

The Countryside Council for Wales response to the consultation addressed to Elin Jones was far from enthusiastic about the Welsh Assembly's proposal. It can be found on the WAG website.
It says that "The CCW is disappointed that the modelling work commissioned by the Welsh Assembly Government from the Food and Environment Research Agency did not demonstrate that a combined approach of badger trapping, testing, vaccinating or culling would provide a suitable alternative to a non-selective badger cull".

The benefits of culling are not expected to last beyond a few years and to be very small. Taking into account paying the extra police, the cost of the cull at 9 million, and the impact on tourism and Welsh produce in order to achieve a small numbers of breakdowns at best, then where is the rationale for this slaughter.

[Eryri]

Originally Posted by stripee

Eryri, throughout the whole badger cull debate, Elin Jones has been the main point of contact for people's concerns, emails and letters as the Minister for Rural Affairs. Local AMs and MPs have also been contacted. Noone is specifically demonising Plaid (I in fact have voted for Plaid more than once, and liked my local Plaid MP, however it will be hard to persuade me to do so again).

Of course the minister for rural affairs is the main contact for rural affairs. What would you expect ?

Originally Posted by stripee

The Senedd consists of 60 members, this is a small number in democratic terms to make major decisions on behalf of people - only 30 odd in favour of any policy are needed for it to suceed. It is only the size of a large committee.

AMs are elected directly from constituencies as well as regionally via a form of proportional representation. Whilst there are some 600 at Westminster and a House of Lords, there is no appetite in Wales for a huge state administration. The vote was 38 in favour, 12 against, 3 abstentions (two of which were Plaid).

Originally Posted by stripee

At the Newport meeting there were approx 300 people.

Your star speaker at the meeting, Swansea based Peter Black AM, claims "up to 200" on his blog. The Pembrokeshire Agricultural Society get a bigger turnout at the Merched y Wawr tea party on show days. I was most amused by the spiritualist in PAC who claims to talk telepathically to badgers. There is certainly a rich diversity of people in Sir Penfro, but I may suggest that those of the Hindu sect of Shambo fame is, slightly unusual.

Originally Posted by stripee

Another reason is a non selective cull of badgers which will see healthy animals destroyed.

Most badgers with a bTB infection are healthy. Badgers are carriers and 'shed' the infection.

Originally Posted by stripee

It is across the board. The North Pembs area is far from being all cattle farmers. Noone is suggesting a return to prehistory however the landscape could change, we have only been farming for several thousand years in Britain, during that period the landscape has changed radically. The Bronze Age for instance saw climate warming, deforestation and the rise of moorland. Badgers were here long before humans, their forest homes were cleared. Wolves are obviously not practical in our high density part of the country. The motor car does a fine job of killing badgers, along with increasing badger baiters. There are 61.4 million humans and rising (2008 figures)in the UK, there are estimated to be between 300-400 000 badgers. It is their European stronghold, and badgers in the UK have a social structure not seen in other parts of their range.

I don't know what point you're trying to make here but there have has human occupation of this part of Wales for many hundreds of thousands of years, back to Mesolithic times. Pembrokeshire is famous for archaeological excavations of caves occupied during interglacial period, and man hunted such species of woolly rhino and mammoth. In more recent times, you will note that the Blue Stones of Stonehenge were exported from the Preseli, most probably on wooden ships. Wolves were a common species in medieval times in Pembrokeshire as villages such as Casblaidd and Mynydd y Blaidd would suggest. Badger as a species is now 'common' in West Wales, and there is an agruement for re-introduction of wolf as a natual preditor. This would not have a substancial impact on cattle, but would on sheep farming and on other wild spicies.

Originally Posted by stripee

Bio diversity is excellent in some parts of the cull area, however since I have lived here there has been a decline in farmland birds and a total wipeout of pasture fungi such as the massive fairy rings of field mushrooms that one used to be able to collect in armfuls, and meadow flowers inc orchids on ordinary farmland. The majority of farms have green fields with nothing in them except grass and many have hedges circa 1 metre.

The introduction of Tir-Gofal schemes will reverse this trend to factory husbandry, but that does depend on maintaining organic farming. The main enemy of free range organic farming of cattle in the area is bTB. The badger cull is just one of a three pronged approach to tackling this problem. The farms that have nothing but grass on them have pasture fed with nitrous fertiliser. They grow silage, for cattle housed indoors in winter. Indoor cattle are less susceptible to be infected by bTB. The badger cull will help reverse this trend and allow many more farms to revert to free range organic husbandry.

Originally Posted by stripee

Some local farms who are now organic I know for a fact use to regularly pollute their streams and kill all the wildlife. The organic herds in NPembs are extremely large - 800 upwards for instance. When there were small farms many herds were approx 50-100 animals. Surely the decline of small farms and the trend to large farms whether organic or not is a reason that disease can spread more easily and costs farmers more when it strikes.

There is a direct correlation between herd size with type of husbandry (indoor v outdoor) practiced in the propensity of infection. Please do not confuse co-operative ownership with herd size. Organic herds are necessarily smaller as they rely on pasture rotation. Non-organic husbandry which relies on concentrate feeding/silage have larger herd size due to the capital investment in machinery and buildings.

Originally Posted by stripee

The Environmental Impact Assessment to be found on the Welsh Assembly web site cites concerns re removing a mammal such as the badger from the area. Their conclusion is that more foxes will take over the area, impacting on rabbit populations and ultimately on birds such as the chough. The killing of badgers can not be taken in isolation from its effects.

Yes. However, you will note that the effect to be small due to the different life cycle of the fox. The main enemy of the fox is the winter, and unlike areas where there are neibouring urban areas where the fox migraye for food, this is not so in the badger cull zone. The badger cull is expected to increase the biodiversity of insects (beetles, grubs etc) and actually enhance the food supply for native birds.

Originally Posted by stripee

The Countryside Council for Wales response to the consultation addressed to Elin Jones was far from enthusiastic about the Welsh Assembly's proposal. It can be found on the WAG website. It says that "The CCW is disappointed that the modelling work commissioned by the Welsh Assembly Government from the Food and Environment Research Agency did not demonstrate that a combined approach of badger trapping, testing, vaccinating or culling would provide a suitable alternative to a non-selective badger cull".

Correct. The CCW would prefer a 'selective' cull. It would prefer that badgers be tested for mBovis before shooting, and only those infected be shot. There are however, practicalities in this, which is why it was decided to select an area where the majority of badgers are known to be infected in Penfro/Ceredigion, with lowest migration. You will notice from the data, that the area of highest infection rate in badgers is actually South Powys, but there is an issue of migration in that area.

Originally Posted by stripee

The benefits of culling are not expected to last beyond a few years and to be very small. Taking into account paying the extra police, the cost of the cull at 9 million, and the impact on tourism and Welsh produce in order to achieve a small numbers of breakdowns at best, then where is the rationale for this slaughter.

There was one police officer and 3 PCSOs who would have been drafted over the issue, their role was expected to deal with more extreme elements who might resort to terrorist activity and were expected to descend from outside the area. As it happens 98% of landowners have already granted access and Dyfed Powys Police no longer think this extra policing will be necessary.

There are two issues related to tourism in West Wales (a) too many tourists spending too little money, there is now a change of enphasis to target higher value tourist income which is less seasonal, and (b) the customer for 'organic produce' is a little more sophisticated in their food schoices and are more aware, there has been no reduction in the consuption of organic produce due to the cull, it has merely highlighted the issues in food production. Customers of organic Welsh organic dairy and meat producs are also those who buy culled dear and free range pheasant. This market does not assume meat is reared in plastic trays.

Here is another link...

Public Opinion of Consumers on Badger Cull to control bTB

Respondents [ramdom selection of households in England and Wales] also expressed a concern to control bTB in cattle. Ninety-two per cent of respondents ‘agreed’ that ‘controlling bTB in cattle is important’. When asked if ‘bTB should be controlled by the management of badger populations’, 38% ‘agreed’ but 36% ‘disagreed’, and 23% ‘neither agreed nor disagreed’.

[Eryri]

Originally Posted by GavinWheeler

- one reactor in a herd means that the entire herd has to be slaughtered
- one reactor in a herd means that there is "an 80% chance of the majority of the rest of the herd developing infection""

I did not say that once a positive reactor is discovered in a herd that the farmer will HAVE to slaughter the whole herd. What I do say is that as average compensation per head for dairy has been reduced from £1063 to £575, and also a reduction from £2,103 to £1178 for pedigree stock. In that circumstance, a farmer is more likely to surrender a herd based on the fact that movement restriction, sale restriction, and costs associated with isolation cattle with control measures would make continued maintenance of an infected herd unsustainable. The evidence for this is that the number of farmers who 'throw in the towel' on cattle farming is high. If you stop cattle farming, you certainly DO surrender the whole herd.

[stripee]

A countryside without badgers, no thanks.
The Badger rally is on Monday 8 March 2010 outside the Senedd building Cardiff Bay at 12pm.

This from the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds suggests that Wales is not doing so well in the 2010 year of Biodiversity
The RSPB: Where did all the wildlife go?

[davejg]

Can I ask why they cannot vaccinate the cattle against this problem?

[GavinWheeler]

Originally Posted by Eryri

I did not say that once a positive reactor is discovered in a herd that the farmer will HAVE to slaughter the whole herd.

What you said was:

Originally Posted by Eryri

At present, if a any cow tests positive, all cows in the herd are destroyed.

This is quite simply false. It is neither compulsory nor general practice to slaughter the entire herd on the basis of one reactor. It may not be what you intended to say, but you did say it and many other equally false things, with great confidence and often preceded by telling the other party how wrong they are.

You haven't answered my other points (including the one you quoted) or told me which of my 'arguments' you would like me to justify.

[GavinWheeler]

Originally Posted by davejg

Can I ask why they cannot vaccinate the cattle against this problem?

The currently used test for bovine TB cannot differentiate between a cow who is vaccinated and one who is infected. A vaccine and associated DIVA (Differentiate Infected from Vaccinated Animals) is expected to be ready around 2015.

[Eryri]

Originally Posted by stripee

This from the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds suggests that Wales is not doing so well in the 2010 year of Biodiversity
The RSPB: Where did all the wildlife go?

The decline of farmland birds, such as curlew, yellow hammer and lapwing has been particularly acute. The latest ‘Breeding Birds Survey’ shows the numbers of yellow hammer in Wales has decreased by nearly 40% since 1995. While a recent species specific survey has estimated the number of curlew has declined by 81% since 1996.

I find this a very strange statement. The Yellow Hammer is a lowland bird, with a natural habitat of the South East of England. It does not survive the harsh upland winter, and has never been common in Wales. The Lapwing is found in arable areas and feed on spring sown cereals, again an agriculture not common in Wales.

The plight of the Curlew does concern me as it is a resident of the estuary mud of the Severn estuary in the South and the Dee estuary in the North, but I am baffled as to how the birds know which side of the border they are, to blame the Welsh Assembly. I suspect the decline in Curlew numbers is as a result of damage to shellfish in the estuary by the poor farming practice upstream, in Cheshire, Gloucestershire. The water quality has declined due to sewage contamination.

If RSPB Cymru is to make a point about farming practice, perhaps they could consider bird species that are common to Wales and where rare species now thrive, such as the Red Kite.

[Eryri]

Originally Posted by eeyore

no the point about "handouts" is that more tax payers money is spent in wales than is raised from welsh taxation - therefore westminster and essentially the english tax payer is subsidising the welsh expenditure.

A very dubious statement bearing in mind that every Welsh taxpayer now owes £20,000 to the banks in the City of London, has a higher proportion of the population as soldiers, returned to Wales in body bags for foreign wars which Wales did not vote for, and Welsh taxpayers are paying a proportion of the billions for nuclear missiles to be planted in Scotland which they don't want.

To bring the discussion back to cattle : Welsh farmers are fed up of subsidising the red meat industry in England.

Wales is 17% of the beef cattle herds of the British mainland but only gets 6% of the meat levy.

This is now being dealt with by the Red Meat Industry (Wales) Measure 2010.

The Welsh law will mean that the levy generated from slaughter from beef cattle reared in Wales will now be held in Wales to be spent in Wales. Hybu Cig Cymru (Meat Promotion Wales), will spend the money on "Improving the ways in which the industry contributes to sustainable development". This will involve promoting schemes such as Tir Gofal and Glastir (worth a google).

[stripee]

It is very odd how all these respected organisations and scientists keep making these strange statements, and Plaid Cymru knows better than all of them. I wonder what is in it for these scientists that they bring out reports with evidence that the Welsh Assembly does not want to hear.

RSPCA
RSPB
The Woodland Trust
The Mammal Society
The Badger Trust
The Wildlife Trusts of UK
Secret World/rescue organisations
Imperial College, London, and other world renowned institutions and universities who have published papers about the ineffectiveness of badger culling.
FERA - Robbie McDonald who appeared on this week's "Country File" Adam's farm and was explaining about surveying setts for the vaccine programme.