Badger cull in Wales

[Eryri]

Originally Posted by danthekeeper

Sorry if this has been covered in other threads but why can't cattle be vaccinated they are a lot easier to find,catch and inject than badgers?

The existing vaccination is only 80% effective, even when administered to all young calves. It would have to be done, at least, annually. Also, the vaccination creates a 'false positive' on the test to see if a cow has the disease. A cow that has been vaccinated would give a 'false positive' on the 'reactor test' and this would not indicate if a booster is required, has the disease, or merely has residual indicators still being susceptible to infection. The vaccine is not a 'magic bullet' as some vaccinations against viruses can be. Both the cull and vaccination (or a combination of both) are attempts at a control measure, not a cure. Here is the definitive document.

Options for vaccinating cattle against bovine tuberculosis

An important consideration, not yet taken up by Defra in England, but anticipated by the Welsh Government, is that work to perfect a more effective vaccination and elimination of false positives in deployment would rely on genetic manipulation of proteins within, or to artificially create an inert m.bovis strain. There are obvious ethical considerations in the introduction of GM adaptations of harmful bacteria, as an antigen, into the food chain. I suspect this route may end up with more problems (not just cost) than a cull of a few hundred badgers in a West Wales hotspot, which would have no long term harmful effect on the species as a whole.

[Eryri]

Originally Posted by Ukwildlifeo

Mind you it wins votes for Plaid Cymru which shows the cull is about politics and NOT science and actually solving the problem.

Regardless of whether you support or oppose the cull, it's important to understand that there are some politicians who are seeking to specifically demonise Plaid for purely party political reasons, in the lead up to the general election. There is a party political consensus in favour of the cull in Wales, but it is only Plaid Cymru who will be standing candidate wholly within Wales. I suspect that Labour, LibDem and Conservative's in England may wish to be seen to 'wash their hands' of a decision made in Wales by their own political party, in the hope of gaining political support from constituencies in England.

The majority of all AMs of ALL political parties voted in favour of the cull in full plenary of the Senedd.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by danthekeeper

Has a cull been tried before in another area (Ireland?) and proved to be ineffective?

Gloucestershire in 05 , and yep it was somewhat less than effective - it also showed that where badgers are infected with btb, culling them actually increases the likely hood of them transmitting the infection to other badgers and arguably to cows because it breaks up the social structure of the sett and increases the number of transient badgers contacting other setts in the area.

I do understand why farmers fear a positive btb test and want to take precautions against it , and badgers do carry it - but then so do deer, and hedgehogs, and some birds, and of course people on their shoes, hands and clothes.

the only feasible long term solution is therefore vacinating the cattle - but as per the above we need a better vacine and a better test - and developing those cost money.

[danthekeeper]

Originally Posted by Eryri

The existing vaccination is only 80% effective, even when administered to all young calves. It would have to be done, at least, annually. Also, the vaccination creates a 'false positive' on the test to see if a cow has the disease. A cow that has been vaccinated would give a 'false positive' on the 'reactor test' and this would not indicate if a booster is required, has the disease, or merely has residual indicators still being susceptible to infection. The vaccine is not a 'magic bullet' as some vaccinations against viruses can be. Both the cull and vaccination (or a combination of both) are attempts at a control measure, not a cure. Here is the definitive document.

Options for vaccinating cattle against bovine tuberculosis

An important consideration, not yet taken up by Defra in England, but anticipated by the Welsh Government, is that work to perfect a more effective vaccination and elimination of false positives in deployment would rely on genetic manipulation of proteins within, or to artificially create an inert m.bovis strain. There are obvious ethical considerations in the introduction of GM adaptations of harmful bacteria, as an antigen, into the food chain. I suspect this route may end up with more problems (not just cost) than a cull of a few hundred badgers in a West Wales hotspot, which would have no long term harmful effect on the species as a whole.

Thanksthe link was a lot to read and I have to admit that a lot of it was over my head it does show however that there is a lot more to this than just culling badgers and that vaccinating cows against btb is a lot easier said than done.

[stripee]

Originally Posted by Ukwildlifeo

Looks there is another reason to not cull badgers
BBC News - Badger culls 'not cost-effective'

Turns out its not a finicial sensible or viable option. Mind you it wins votes for Plaid Cymru which shows the cull is about politics and NOT science and actually solving the problem.

The report by scientists from Imperial College, who are respected members of the scientific community states that badger culling does not make economic sense.
However, the NFU says the report is "an insult to the farming community". Why would scientists bother to do this research in order to be insulting?

The proposed cull is based on the David King recommendations which were in turn based on the findings of the ISG. It is supposed to differ from the ISG in that it will include "strict cattle measures". These should have been introduced years ago across the board and the lack of them has obviously contributed to the spread of btb. It would have also prevented spread of the disease into more badger populations.

The WAG is run by farmers for farmers. They will soon want our votes. They will not get mine, and many others will agree. Even vegetarians have the vote - even in Wales! As do arable farmers, and all of the other landowners in the North Pembs area who are not behind this cruel WAG policy.

[Eryri]

That's evidently not true. There are 60 elected AMs, and only three have any direct links to farming, one LibDem, one Plaid, and one Conservative. The decision to go ahead with the cull was not taken by WAG, it was a decision of all AMs in the full plenary of the Senedd. The vote was a follows :

In favour of the cull :

Plaid Cymru, Davies, Jocelyn
Plaid Cymru, Evans, Nerys
Plaid Cymru, Franks, Chris
Plaid Cymru, Jones, Alun Ffred
Plaid Cymru, Jones, Elin
Plaid Cymru, Jones, Gareth
Plaid Cymru, Jones, Helen Mary
Plaid Cymru, Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Plaid Cymru, Lloyd, David
Plaid Cymru, Ryder, Janet
Plaid Cymru, Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
LibDem, Randerson, Jenny
LibDem, German, Michael
LibDem, Bates, Mick
LibDem, Burnham, Eleanor
LibDem, Williams, Kirsty
Labour, Jones, Carwyn
Labour, Gibbons, Brian
Labour, Griffiths, John (Newport East)
Labour, Hutt, Jane
Labour, Sargeant, Carl
Labour, Thomas, Gwenda
Labour, Davidson, Jane
Labour,, Davies, Alun
Labour, Davies, Andrew
Labour, Andrews, Leighton
Labour, Morgan, Rhodri
Conservative, Cairns, Alun
Conservative, Isherwood, Mark
Conservative, Melding, David
Conservative, Millar, Darren
Conservative, Davies, Andrew RT
Conservative, Davies, Paul
Conservative, Ramsay, Nick
Conservative, Williams, Brynle
Conservative, Bourne, Nick
Conservative, Graham, William
Conservative, Asghar, Mohammad


Against the cull.

Labour, Lorraine Barrett
Labour, Janice Gregory
Labour, Lesley Griffiths
Labour, Irene James
Labour, Ann Jones
Labour, Huw Lewis
Labour, Val Lloyd
Labour, Sandy Mewies
Labour, Lynne Neagle
Labour, Karen Sinclair
LibDem, Peter Black
Independent, Trish Law

Abstentions/Did not vote.

Labour, Jeff Cuthbert
Plaid Cymru, Bethan Jenkins
Plaid Cymru, Dafydd Elis Thomas.

The majority of ALL the major political parties in Wales support the cull, and strangely, it's actually the Conservative Party who voted most strongly in favour.The assertion that this is some kind of Plaid conspiracy is bizarre. There area chosen for the cull is bordered by the Cambrian, and Preseli mountains and the Irish sea, a natural border which both the ISG and the David King report identified as required for a cull to be successful, preventing migration of badgers from 'edges'. You should also note that the NFU does not represent the majority of farmers in the area, but the FUW (Farmers Union of Wales) who are also fully supportive of this cull.

The 'strict cattle measures' are already in existence in the area. The cull area is renowned for organic livestock, and all year grass fed, out-door husbandry. The additional measures for the cull include an ban of 'import' of cattle into the area from areas which are outside the cull zone, a requirement specified in the scientific reports.

Whilst it's true vegitarians have the vote, vegitarians also consume dairy products. It's not correct to automatically assume that the majority of vegitarians automatically oppose or wish to impose upon others, onto those who do eat meat.

[stripee]

"think the claim that most farmers and landowners in the Penfro/Ceredigion area are against the cull is nonsense. While there have been some arable farmers in South Pembrokeshire being quite vocal, allied with some vegetarian groups, the vast majority of farmers in the area are fully supportive of the cull. "

You, Eyri, mentioned vegetarians. Your point. Actually I am a vegan landowner. Not quite within the cull area but within sight of it. I don't impose my views on others but in this case others views are being imposed on me and not only me, many who are opposed for very good reasons to this cull of badgers. You can belittle us all you like. I know that Plaid Cymru and its volunteers have been encouraged to post on anything related to the badger cull.

As for who did and did not vote for the cull. I know that Labour were whipped to vote in favour and a badger cull was on the cards from the beginning.

However, my comments as to voting relate to the WAG as a whole apart from one or two - I am not especially anti Plaid. Especially as regards more powers. I know which way I will vote on that one!
Anyone who lives in rural Wales knows who runs the show.

WAG wants to disregard the science and the logic and kill badgers in order to appease the farming unions and the farmers.
Bovine TB is not even thought to be a human health risk:

Togerson and Togerson

"Bovine tuberculosis (bTB) in UK cattle is increasing
rapidly. Consequently, the UK Government is spending
escalating sums of money in attempts at disease control.
We propose that bTB control in cattle is irrelevant as a
public health policy. In the UK, cattle-to-human transmission
is negligible. Aerosol transmission, the only
probable route of human acquisition, occurs at inconsequential
levels when milk is pasteurised, even when
bTB is highly endemic in cattle. Furthermore, there is
little evidence for a positive cost benefit in terms of
animal health of bTB control. Such evidence is required;
otherwise, there is little justification for the large sums
of public money spent on bTB control in the UK."

[Eryri]

It is correct that bTB transmission to humans is not possible if milk is pasturised. However, it should be noted that many small rural businesses in Ceredigon who make unpasturised cheese and other organic dairy products. It may also be useful to consider that it is the human strain BCG is the one proposed in the badger specific vaccination. Transmission or not is not a clinical certainty, one way or the other, as bacterial infection depends on strain, environment and many other factors. It is for this very reason that such controls exist in dairy produce.

I don't think it's true that the Department of Agriculture 'ignored the science'. Those with knowledge of the scientific studies and data, will also be aware that all such data and reports were considered in Wales throughout the decision making process. It's not true to say the cull is to 'appease' the farming unions, many other bodies have been involved including some changes and adaptations with the assistance of the Badger Trust (BT Cymru and the affiliated branches). Other consultations included bodies as varied as the Countryside Council for Wales (the Welsh equivalent of Natural England) through to the non-governmental bodies with an interest in the rural environment.

On the issue of the science, you will know that the key finding of the ISG report was that : "Proactive culling significantly reduced badger density in all 10 trial areas, and also reduced the incidence of bovine TB in cattle in these areas. However, in the areas adjacent to culled areas the incidence of bovine TB actually increased."

As for anyone living within sight of the proposed cull zone, good science would suggest you immediately telephone the Minister for Agriculture if you spot any badgers swimming the Irish sea. Obviously, overland introduction by human activity over the Cambrian or Preseli mountains is already an offence under existing wildlife legislation.

As regards party politics, it should be noted that the Senedd do not have 'whips' on the same way as the adversarial chamber at Westminster. While ministers do have collective responsibility in Wales, Labour, Plaid and LibDem AMs voted freely and some of all these parties abstained or voted against in the full plenary or the Senedd.

My personal views on the cull are that this would complement the work of Defra in England and contribute to the data and knowledge in tackling bTB. No-one supports the cull for want of blood, but as with any farming of livestock (or event habitat manipulation for wild species) there are hard decisions that need to be taken, and that does have to include consideration of the welfare of the 1.1 million cattle in Wales.

[stripee]

As you will know, Eyri, the Badger Trust has a Judicial Review of the cull decision at the beginning of April, and although BT Cymru was consulted, its advice was ignored. The Countryside Council for Wales was also as you say consulted but as a Government Agency had little choice in the matter.
There are 350 farms in the cull area, but there are 1500 landowners of various types, and this does not include back gardens, schools, embankments. The Wildlife Trust held a meeting in December with Dan Foreman from Swansea University as speaker. There were over 200 people at the meeting incandescent with fury at the prospect of armed contractors arriving on their properties to kill badgers.
Holiday lets are already reporting a slump in booking. South West Wales Wildlife Trust - the logo of the Wildlife Trusts is,of course, the badger - who offer badger watching from May - are facing culls on 3 of their reserves. At Cilgerran, Pencelly Forest and one of their farms in Newport. This is an unprecedented action by a government to enforce entry to nature reserves to remove a protected species. The compulsion to admit contractors under the Eradication Order and the other draconian (as mentioned by ZeusS) restrictions are beyond what one would expect in the UK and are more worthy of countries such as Burma and China, and are authoritarian in the extreme.If Plaid and the WAG wish to delude themselves that this is just a little local difficulty and that everyone who objects is incapable of understanding the science, is some kind of extremist, or "English", or an incomer or any of the other dismissive decriptions given to residents other than the chosen few, then they are due to be astonished.

The WAG has access to the same science as DEFRA. Hilary Benn is to be congratulated on taking the sensible decision.

Apart from the Preselis, the Teifi and the sea, the cull area includes small streams as boundaries, and areas of woodland/sheep. As for the Cych it is easy enough to walk across it in most places, especially in the summer. Badgers and foxes use fallen trees all the time to cross streams. In the modelling done by the WAG this particular area was shown on their map to be one of the least geographically isolated areas.

People can make up their own minds, but boycotting dairy produce (including organic) from Wales, could be something they may want to consider.

[darrenm]

Would not boycotting dairy products alienate people further?

I understand both sides of the arguement and it is Livelihood verus the Natural world and this will continue to cause very high emotions all round.

What i do wonder is if you remove any established native species by whatever means and for whatever reason on a large scale or from a complete area will this not have an impact on the local ecology and throw up other now unforseen problems long term?