Bat question

[Beekeeper]

Not sure if this thread should go in this section but it seems the most appropriate.

Where i am working at the moment, there is a colony of Bats in the loft, high up in the apex of the roof. I want to get some photographs of them for identification, I do know Bats use echo sounding or radar for guidance, so this poses some questions.

Ist. Are they blind? if they are it makes life easy as i can floodlight their perch to get some photographs, what i dont want to do is disturb them in any way so perhaps someone could provide the answer for that.

2 Would they be able to sense my presence or smell me (Not that i do smell) if i climbed up a ladder to get some different angled shots as they are quite bunched together.
They must have a sense of smell i presume.

3 If i were to remove one from the group and reposition him or her for photographs would that cause distress?
I would be very reluctant to do that anyway but only really asked that as an outside option if it was impossible to get any decent pictures otherwise.

Hope someone can advise me, thanks in advance BK (Ian)

[ChrisR]

Hi Beekeeper

Bats are not blind and they certainly would sense your presence if you went anywhere near them - also handling is a definite no-no for a number of reasons - the main being rabies has been contracted from bat bites in the past.

I'm going to get a bit grown-up and boring now too because, I think (not 100% sure - someone correct me), but knowingly disturbing a bat roost is illegal in Britain ... so technically you shouldn't go anywhere near them and if you do take any photos then they should be from a long way away ... or not at all

For identification you could get in touch with your local mammal group and get someone along with a bat box ... then you could perhaps identify them from their squeeks. But it might be too late in the season - I'm not sure when they start to hibernate.

[Beekeeper]

Originally Posted by ChrisR

Hi Beekeeper

Bats are not blind and they certainly would sense your presence if you went anywhere near them - also handling is a definite no-no for a number of reasons - the main being rabies has been contracted from bat bites in the past.

I'm going to get a bit grown-up and boring now too because, I think (not 100% sure - someone correct me), but knowingly disturbing a bat roost is illegal in Britain ... so technically you shouldn't go anywhere near them and if you do take any photos then they should be from a long way away ... or not at all

For identification you could get in touch with your local mammal group and get someone along with a bat box ... then you could perhaps identify them from their squeeks. But it might be too late in the season - I'm not sure when they start to hibernate.

Thanks for your reply ChrisR, i had a feeling it was illegal to disturb them, i have to work in the loft come what may so will just try and keep my distance but will use a tele lens on the camera and hopefully get something that resembles a picture.

fortunately we dont have Rabies in our country (at the moment) but i dont think i would fancy getting bitten by one anyway, will leave them well alone and view from a distance.

BK

[FungiJus]

Hi Ian,

Chris is right - there are strict laws protecting bats in the UK and it is illegal to even disturb a bat roost (or to obscure the entrance to a roost), let alone removing (capturing) a bat. The penalties can be significant (£5k per offence, (or per bat )) or even a potential jail term in real serious cases.

As regards photos for ID, this can be done, but in some cases the physical differences between species can be minute (between the common pipistrelle and the soprano pip for instance). The best way to differentiate between these is to monitor the ultrasound they make, and according to the frequency of the call, this will help determine the species. In this case, the location you suggest in the roof space would indicate pipistrelle are quite likely IMO.

Chris's advice is sound - get in touch with your local mammal group (or even your local bat group) and they will take an interest I'm sure.

Best of luck - and let us know how you get on
J.

[ChrisR]

Originally Posted by Beekeeper

fortunately we dont have Rabies in our country (at the moment) but i dont think i would fancy getting bitten by one anyway, will leave them well alone and view from a distance.

Actually we do have bat rabies - see the DEFRA website here. I quote:

What is bat rabies?
A. European Bat Lyssaviruses (EBLVs) 1 and 2, commonly referred to as bat rabies, are two strains of rabies-related lyssaviruses found in bats across Northern Europe. On rare occasions EBLVs have been known to infect other animals and humans. The risk of EBLV infection to humans is thought to be low. However, since 1977 there have been five human deaths in Europe (three confirmed, two possible) from EBLVs, all in cases where the human had been bitten or scratched by bats and had not received rabies vaccination either before or after being bitten by bats.

and

Is there bat rabies in this country ?
A. To date eight infections with EBLV 2 have been confirmed in bats in the UK despite the testing of around 200 bats a year since 1986 for the virus.

and

Have there been any incidents of bat rabies involving people in the UK?
A. In November 2002, an unvaccinated bat handler in Angus, Scotland died from infection with EBLV 2 and is thought to have had contact with numerous bats.

The problem with bats is that they fly - so they can migrate in and out of the country, bringing diseases with them. So that's one reason why bat handlers usually wear those big gauntlets ... and the fact they bite and it hurts

[Beekeeper]

FungiJus

Thanks for confirming that, i did think thay they were the subject of various strict laws, this is why i asked the question as i hoped someone could confirm or otherwise, its interesting to learn that identification is via sound, i would never have thought that.

I am sure the local bat group would be interested but the roost is in a private house and i dont think the owner would be pleased to have people clambering around her house to view bats, in fact, i am not even sure she knows they are there and i am reluctant to mention it just in case she gets someone to eject them, i dont trust people generally when it comes to preserving wildlife habitats.

As at one stage there were mice also living in the house i can always say that the floor of the loft which is totally covered in Bat droppings is in fact mice droppings if she notices it.

There is no smell from the droppings at all, unlike mice or particularly rats, the latter i find disgusting creatures, the smell from their droppings is pungent.

I don't know if the mess would carry any infections but as i am going to be up there for a couple of days i rather think i shall be wearing gloves.

ChrisR
Think i had better wear a bat proof suit in that case, i am very suprised to learn that Rabies has been found in our Bat popluation, i wonder if this is a result of migration or someone bringing back a animal that had contracted Rabies as i would not think they are able to fly across the channel but maybe i am wrong. What would be the distance in normal flight a Bat would travel?

Although there is a lot of mess, the colony of Bats seems quite small, unless there are more hidden away in other parts of the loft space which i haven't come across yet, will keep a sharp lookout.

Will also make a few notes on my travels around the loft regarding the Bats just out of interest, which i will add to the thread at some stage, thanks again for your help i do find these little creratures fascinating.


ian

[ChrisR]

Originally Posted by Beekeeper

i wonder if this is a result of migration or someone bringing back a animal that had contracted Rabies as i would not think they are able to fly across the channel but maybe i am wrong. What would be the distance in normal flight a Bat would travel?

I'm not sure but a few American sites say their bats migrate 100s of km. Saying that, most of our species hibernate to go through winter so migration must be a rare strategy here. Perhaps they are just vagrants from Europe?

[Gill Catton]

I think its one of those things where you are really only at risk of contrating any disease if you regularly handle the bats. Bats are never aggressive and won't fly at you to attack you - they might fly over your head to suss out what you are but that's it.

Its right that they are protected (very important to the locale ecology due to the numbers of insects they eat, they breed slowly (one young a year) and breed colonially so the loss of any maternity roost can have a significant impact.

I recommend sending a note to your county biological records centre even just saing 'bat roost' (species uncertain), the date and the grid ref (or address) then if ever anyone wants to do anything to the house like a loft conversion or even knocking the thing down) they record should come up and the bat roost then would have be taken into account.

[PMG]

Originally Posted by Beekeeper

Not sure if this thread should go in this section but it seems the most appropriate.

Where i am working at the moment, there is a colony of Bats in the loft, high up in the apex of the roof. I want to get some photographs of them for identification, I do know Bats use echo sounding or radar for guidance, so this poses some questions.

Ist. Are they blind? if they are it makes life easy as i can floodlight their perch to get some photographs, what i dont want to do is disturb them in any way so perhaps someone could provide the answer for that.

2 Would they be able to sense my presence or smell me (Not that i do smell) if i climbed up a ladder to get some different angled shots as they are quite bunched together.
They must have a sense of smell i presume.

3 If i were to remove one from the group and reposition him or her for photographs would that cause distress?
I would be very reluctant to do that anyway but only really asked that as an outside option if it was impossible to get any decent pictures otherwise.

Hope someone can advise me, thanks in advance BK (Ian)

As others have said - all of the above thoughts would turn out to be illegal and constitute disturbance to the colony - and the colony as a whole is vastly important as has already been said cos of the slow rate of breeding - also causing them poss to leave at a time when they are on the very edge of - or even begun to hibernate - all makes the photography bit a No-no

You're best bet while notifying your local bat group is then to either join the group and find out who in the group is taking in and rehabilitating bats and ask them would they mind letting you photograph the bats they have. Our local chappie has injured bats that he keeps - some cannot be released - they are too disabled to live a normal bat life. He uses the more relaxed easy going one's for education, school visits and showing prior to bat walks with the local ranger service.

Well done for noticing them and having a quiet think about what to do next to protect them and where they are roosting

Pauline

[canis.rufus]

Hi Beekeeper,

Just to add to what has already been said, I am slightly concerned that you will be working in the loftspace with the bats.

As has been mentioned, any disturbance to a bat roost is a serious offense, and this can even include simply entering the space. Therefore, by working in there (and I have no idea of the nature of the work), you could potentially land yourself in hot water.

Your local council should have a department which deals with protected species (normally regarding planning applications) and I would strongly advise that you get in contact with them before proceeding further (although provision varies by area, and unless you speak to the right person you might get fobbed off with wrong information ).

I understand your concern about informing the home owner, but unless a roost in known it cannot be protected. If you are not sure, you could contact your bat group and let them approach the owner; as they are probably experienced at dealing with these situations.


Best of luck - Toby.