BABY FOX in the Gdn- Pros&Cons.PLEASE

[spaa]

BABY FOX in the garden...what to do? pros and cons- PLEASE For a couple of days a gorgeous baby-fox has been wondering around in our garden...we have left some food for him, he has actually come in a couple of times! and seems harmless, are they so? he has obeyed and after some food, relaxed and went to sleep like a baby.. as we cannot keep him in we had to push him out and close the back door. The following morning he was waiting for us to open the door. We didn't but he came back that night. Last night around 7pm we saw the neighbours throwing things at him to make him leave, he was scared and left but 20min later came back to our place, had some food and went to sleep. Around 11pm he was quite active so we closed the door again... he was crying! and made some noise finding a place to sleep next to pots(The neigh turned lights on). This morning he was back again...We think he has nowhere to go, perhaps lost his parents, and is so cute we cannot think he means any harm. On the one hand, we do not want any probs with neighbours who see him as a threat and this a.m were clapping to make him leave as if he was causing any nuisance. On the other hand, we'd love him coming around "for a while" as previous urban foxes we've had coming and going ( we are surprise this one wants to stay with us like a pet BUT it's something we cannot do. In our experience, they are not dangerous, if anything they are very sensitive, and noble. What to do?

[valleyforge]

From what you have told us, it appears that this fox cub has an identity crisis ... being neither wild, nor wanted as tame. That puts it in direct mortal harm from other humans, now and in the future.

What you should do for the best is to contact a wildlife rescue organisation in your area who can either rehabilitate the cub, perhaps with others of its kind, so that it is able to return to a state of wild living in a more suitable environment ... or failing that provide it with sanctuary for the remainder of its life.

Let us know where you are so we can provide you with some suitable contact details.

[spaa]

Very grateful for your replies. Yes, he has been disorientated for a couple of days hence the identity crisis you mention marcia...(fist time he came was last Fri). We are trying to educate him to come ‘for a while’ during the night, so I open the door after 7pm, so that he develops his instincts during the day and learns to protect himself. He seems to be getting the msg; he has his route, because he disappears during the day. Yesterday he was wandering around since 6pm, and I watched him going around peacefully meaning no harm in other gardens and then disspeared. In our experience with urban foxes, we have seen them marking their territory everywhere with their urine, the curious thing is that he is not doing it and has never ever done it when indoors he's got even manners! He seems also very sensitive and didn’t dare near the neighs that do not want him.

After 7pm I opened the door, left some food and water, he came around 730pm, had the food, did not touch the water… and then went to sleep in kitchen mat… as soon as I needed to get in there, and even tried not to disturb him, he simply left and didn’t even sleep in our garden… so that was good news for us. We’d love to continue seeing him around making his way, we do not want him to depend on us, he gives signs he is capable of doing so… we live in London SW and Have gathered all the info and websites (from the advice many have given to Dickybird, which was an inspiring and useful debate to find) and Will be contacting them and/or talk to neighs if we see he is in danger. Many thanks again

[spaa]

Sorry, Someone called marcia posted it to me in another debate in case I missed it. Regards.

[Hedgehoggy]

Hi Spaa

I’m really concerned about this little mite’s fate. How small is he, in comparison to, say, a medium sized cat? Due to the behaviour you describe, I wonder if he’s been separated from his mother too early (mum could possibly have been killed by a car, etc) hence he’s unable to fend for himself properly and is looking to you for help. Handling a very young fox cub would be much like handling a puppy dog, so there’s nothing to fear.

The London Wildcare Trust (0208 6476230) is an excellent wildlife hospital based in Wallington and they will come and collect the cub from you so it can receive the expert care and rehab it needs. Please contact them as soon as possible and then let us know the outcome.

http://www.londonwildcaretrust.co.uk/

[Words]

Personally I wouldn't encourage him to come inside the house. He may pick on a less understanding home next time around. Unless he looks undernourished or ill, I'd also keep feeding fairly minimal. By this time of year he should be very capable of looking after himself. Most likely he's been turfed out of his former territory by the adults (a common pattern for foxes in early autumn) and so is searching out for a place of his own (so to speak). You say he's a baby, but how small is he really? I'd be concerned if he looked like this, but not too worried if he looked like this (the first shot is about 6 weeks old, the second is about 5 months old).

[Bumblebeebob]

There are 2 young Foxes living in my neighbourhood but they must be about 6 months old by now & although they occasionally still play together they are quite independant, the adults seem to have moved on. During the day they sleep under trees & shrubs in gardens but at night they are out & about on the road. There are woods nearby with plenty of other Foxes around. Like WORDS said I would also be concerned if the cub is very small at this time of year & would be inclined to contact a wildlife rescue centre.

[Elevate29]

You can also contact Wildlife Aid in Leatherhead which isn't too far from you. They also collect and rehab 'tame' foxes.

Wildlife Aid - Home

[spaa]

Thanks everyone for your interest and comments. Words, very grateful for your photos, they were really useful, the cub really looks a little bit older than the first shot. To let you know the end of our story: One day the cub was run after and pushed out of the next door garden, but he managed his way to ours and kept coming for a while during the evenings, until one day he pooed and we asked him to go out, thinking he would learn to do it outside, but sadly we have not seen him since. He took it personally! We are left with the great feeling the experience has left anyway, he used to come even into our living room, smell around with such alertness, manners, and tender eyes that all it took was snapping fingers to get him to the kitchen where he would sit, all curled up to have his nap before leaving. So we believe he knows his way around. Keep looking to the horizon though, wondering if he would visit us again…

He used to have some veggies, loved nuts (but we had to get them out of shells for him or he wouldn’t eat them), his favourite was meat, tuna and chicken’ skin. Thought about to continue leaving some food but with the attitude around, attracting him could expose them to harm; so actually will have to think about it. That’s all from us, many thanks again.

[Hedgehoggy]

I’m astounded. It takes a lot to ruffle my feathers, but I just read your story in disbelief. If the cub was similar in size to Words’ first photo, then, as already stated to you, it would be a CONCERN. The cub is NOT independent at that age. Not only were you given advice on how to help the cub, you were also given details of your local Wildlife Centres, which would have come and collected the cub and rehabilitated it safely. Imo, the fact that you completely ignored all advice suggests you had no genuine concern for the cub’s welfare, and merely continued to entice the cub into your house for your own gratification, and then rejecting it after you’d had your evening’s entertainment. How confusingly cruel for the poor little mite.

I sincerely hope the cub had the good fortune to be found by a genuinely caring person who would have used their common sense and got it the help it so obviously was desperately seeking.

[dickybird]

got to agree with you there,hedgehoggy.


if we REALLY care for our wildlife,we have to be prepared to put ourselves out for it. you were lucky-you probably had several wildlife centres you could have called on for help,imo. the fact that you didnt and possibly werent intending to anyway,makes me angry too.

IF this fox does return-and wildlife is unpredictable-i hope that given a second opportunity,you WILL contact the centre immediately. there is nothing to be reluctant about-they will give you straightforward advice and offer to help if they can.

like hedgehoggy,i too,hope the fox has either found someone who IS prepared to help----or has developed a healthy mistrust of man and is learning to fend for itself.

dickybird

[Picidae]

CONS!!!!!

Again, have to agree with hedgehoggy and DB on this. If this young fox had an ''indentity crisis'' it's purely down to the fact that it was encouraged to enter a domestic dwelling and then treated like a stray dog on a short term contract. Wild animals are not pets. They should not be treated as potential pets. They are not there to satisfy our own misplaced needy behaviour. Treating them as such puts them in a very serious risk of becoming victims of human aggression, road traffic accidents, inability to relate to their own species, inability to fend for themselves in the wild/risk of starvation (this especially applies to young animals/birds) illness due to the wrong foods being given .... as for suddenly cutting off an (indoor!!!) food supply after deliberately encouraging a young wild animal to rely on it because it had the 'audacity' not to be house trained is cruel in the extreme and very irresponsible.

Sorry Spaa - regardless of how 'kind' you were trying to be to a wild animal (and you are commended for caring btw) this was really not the way to go about things! Hopefully, you'll know what to do if there's another occasion where you have wild animals coming into the garden. The fox may return and by all means put some (appropriate!!) food in the garden but please keep your distance and call one of the rescue links provided by members on this thread)

For anybody generally reading this, WAB has some very experienced wild life rescue professionals amongst it's membership as well as those who have respected and extensive experience with Foxes. When they offer advice PLEASE heed it and if people want a canine pet - get a domestic dog! (although clearly not all people should even do that.)

( By the way, it is in fact illegal and a contravention of the Wildlife Act to 'rescue' then 'release' a wild animals/birds who are unable to fend for themselves in the wild. A situation like this, could potentially bring one very close to breaking the Law and may well rest on a case based legal interpretation of 'rescue' and 'release'!)

[Picidae]

Reading through my post it sounds rather harsh to Spaa so apologies (it's too late to tone it down now!) - know you thought you were doing the right thing and you did say at the outset you weren't looking for a pet! The essential points still stand but hope you won't be deterred from coming on WAB in the future for fear of having your head bitten off! More importantly, for the sake of any wildlife you come across that needs help, the site is an excellence source for seeking assistance with injured/abandoned animals and most people are forgiving of any mistakes made .

Again, please let us know what happens.

[TheSeagull]

I am in no way saying you did anything wrong but it does sound like there is now a scared, confused, effective pet out in the street. Any juvenile at that age is impressionable and from the sounds of it was tamed. It should not have any contact with humans and although I am unfortunate enough to have never had foxes in my garden if I did I would scatter the food in the garden like a natural food source. If a wild animal obeys then it is no longer wild.

[elaine2206]

Hi hun, we had a baby fox come to us in the spring this year. He was only about 4 months old and had obviously lost his mother some how cos he slept in our garden, we made a shelter for him. Anyway, one horrible morning i got up expecting him to be looking through my consevatory window, and I saw him all bashed up and bitten,, it broke my heart. He was very tame and we managed to catch him and took him to wildlife sanctuary. When the vet looked at him he found a cancerous growth in his mouth and had to put him to sleep. Tame foxes do not get on in the wild, our little fella must have been bitten by a dog, he was safe in our garden but wasnt cautios enough in someone elses. If your little fox is too tame be strong and have someone take him to sanctuary. My little fox was special too cos he needed help. I'll never forget him. We have other foxes but they are naturally wary of humans.

[spaa]

APPALLING! THOUGHT ABOUT LEAVING AND CLOSING MY ACCOUNT WITHOUT SPENDING MORE ENERGY CLARIFYING. Wrote these lines back when I received your mails, and today- a month later, feel exactly the same way: I need to say that ‘I do regret seeking the experts advice’ who seem not to have read or have understood my mails… feel completely insulted and disempowered… not dissimilar to fundamentalist fanatics who do not take into account others do not need to be ‘experts’ to relate to the miracle of nature and to animals. We are not 5yrs old, and everyone can have a direct and unique experience, as we have done for years simply by listening to our own feeling consciousness and instincts.
Your opinions are actually quite slanderous, judgemental and self-righteous!!!
TOO WILD MANNERS FOR OUR TASTE. Please respect our wish not to receive any more messages. Your comments also reflect why the world is the way it is… no one dares to be nice in the name of love, to protect others from others who might not be as nice as the have been, how ridiculous. Anyway, we have learnt our lesson: You should not really open your heart to tell your spiritual experiences, talk about politics or something so sacred and beautiful as your own experiences with animals.

The way we feel does not prevent us from continue wishing you all the best in your experiences.

PS. Yes, will continue using the site whenever we feel appropriate, we do not tend to generalize or demonise groups after this kind of experience. By these virtual Interactions we all learn some manners and social skills and contribute a little bit more to stop the blame culture in which we live.

[k4t3]

Spaa, I felt the same way a few weeks back when i asked for advice on a collared dove that had survived an attack by a sparrowhawk due to a cats intervention. I was shot down in flames, reprimanded and virtually called a murderer for my actions, which only intended to help the creature.
I have since received many messages from other WAB members apologising for the more extreme members replies. At the time, i was as you are, very very angry with the site and the santimonious posts that i received.
The only reson we go on sites like these is to try and get advice to enable us to help the animals that surround us, and then all we get is grief and little helpful advice.
I suggested on the forum that if the site wanted to attract more users, they should stop attacking innocent and well meaning newbies in this way, it is demoralising and wrong.
The majority of people on here are friendly and helpful...some of the same that attacked you also attacked me. Don't lose faith in the site as a resource, but don't let them get you down.

Kate xx

[Picidae]

Originally Posted by spaa

What to do?

What indeed? When the advice that's offered in good faith by experienced people in dealing with wildlife in response to a REQUEST for help on this forum then it's up to you whether you take it or not I guess. However, despite the (justifiably imo) angry tones of some of our posts, you were given that advice and chose to ignore it. Most of us on here, have a detached and responsible attitude to wildlife born of the recognition that not always one's subjective perception of what an animal needs is not always in accord with the true welfare of an animal. There's nothing wrong with thinking animals are 'cute', there's probably nothing inherently 'wrong' with feeling gratification that a wild animal comes when you ''snap'' your fingers, but I do think when when people come on a wildlife forum to seek ''advice'', they perhaps should not be surprised if others have a rather different approach to the meaning of wild animal ''welfare''.

Sadly, the fact that you were offered opinions and advice about how the young fox should be treated, differed so much from your own views, you took it all as an offence to yourself personally although, I can't think why if we all of us had the welfare of the fox in mind and not our own self esteems. - I can only speak for myself, but it seems a great shame that members on this forum when asked for advice by an unexperienced person, they risk becoming subject to emotional tirades from people who don't like the advice they have been given.

I apologise again for the harshness of my first post, which I rather thought had been ameliorated by my follow up post but obviously not. However, I'll leave you just with one final thought based on my own experience with wildlife, in the hope that you don't take it too personally:

''Love'' isn't all about being ''fluffy'' about wildlife in need of help, but recognising true compassion for anything starts with recognising your own limitations in dealing with a situation where a wild animal needs help and referring/abdicating the responsibility to someone experienced/a professional in a much better position to administer the help required. In other words, it's knowing when to let go.

[elaine2206]

In my book you should trust ur instinct and help where u can.. some people r fanatical on here but normal regular folk just help where they can, good on yer!

[Sue B]

Read with interest on the comment's from various member's about
young foxes. I brought one up from a baby(the vixen had been shot)
I reared him on milky cocoa- he was like a tiny brown bear.
I had him for nearly three year's and he became semi-tame.
He eventually escaped the garden, and I worried to death that he would not be able to "fend" for himself. I advertised , but I heard no more of him-
hopefully he had coped with the "wild" or perhap's he had been run over ?
This was year's ago I did not know of any rescue places, the RSPCA
would not have bothered, so I no option than to rear him.
If his life was a short one he had a very good one with us and was
much loved.
Anyone else with similiar problem's might like to get in touch with the
National Fox Welfare Society, which can be "picked up" on the "Web

[valleyforge]

Originally Posted by Sue B

I reared him on milky cocoa -

No doubt this will be seen as another personal attack by some, but if you post information such as this on an open forum (where it may be discovered and referred to by anyone searching for insights on how to rear a fox cub), I feel it really needs to be accompanied by a balancing statement ... in fact, it's my duty to do so.

This information therefore is not a criticism of Sue B, or of anyone in a similar situation, who is/was truly trying to do their best for an 'orphaned' animal, but I'm afraid that it is really all too easy to do accidental and unforeseen harm, whilst acting out of kindness.

First of all, let's look at milk .... most folk will rightly assume that an infant mammal needs milk, but the most readily available milk (cow's milk) is NOT a suitable replacement for the vast majority of baby mammals ... the level of lactose is way too high to be digested properly, so may lead to diarrhea, enteritis, dehydration and in the worst case scenario, death.

There are a number of commercially available puppy milk replacers (sold in powdered form and available at vet's surgeries and pet shops), which are much better suited to a fox cub's needs, although goat's milk (now increasingly available at supermarkets) is also suitable with the addition of multivitamin drops.

However, the main issue here is in the giving of cocoa (the principle ingredient of chocolate also of course) ... this contains the alkaloid thiobromine, which causes serious poisoning in many mammals, including dogs and foxes (which are closely related members of the dog family).

Dogs/foxes are unable to metabolize the chemical properly (in the way that we can), so that it effectively continues to circulate within their systems, repeatedly poisoning them.

See Theobromine poisoning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The following short article illustrates that thiobromine is an effective poison for foxes also: Theobromine intoxication in a red fox and a Europe... [J Wildl Dis. 2001] - PubMed result

If as Sue B states, the fox survived with her for 3 years, then possibly he didn't ingest sufficient to cause lasting harm to his liver, and I too sincerely hope that he made a success of living in the wild.

[Words]

Thanks for posting the link to the research on theobromine. Reading the research paper, while it does advise caution it also indicates that the results are speculative and that they have no data on the amounts ingested, although the proximity of apparently industrial quantities of chocolate waste suggest the volume must have been high and extended over a long period (the obesity).

But yes, chocolate isn't a good idea and the data contra indicating for dogs is strong.

[Sue B]

Yes- I did actually have a fox for THREE YEAR'S and he was very healthy.
Forgot to add that he never bothered the neighbour's chicken's when
he got out his run- I had a big silly Afghan dog who did that-
she actually killed one. !
Perhap's it was the cocoa that put him off chicken's !!!!!****

[spaa]

No Picidae, could not disagree with you more… I have been in touch with ‘wild animals’ for long time and the unusual experience prompt me to seek for the advice of EXPERTS I though knew a little bit more than they obviously know… to overreact as you did, sending a msg so charged with judgements and condemnation is NOT PROFESSIONAL AT ALL. I left my mail expressing my opinion, which I still hold, because people like you should learn to tame their manners and have people skills. Many are used to vent opinions in a violent outburst ‘in the name of animal welfare’ expecting that a late apology will suffice. NO the damage was done!
And after you sent another ridiculous mail referring to my love for animals as “fluffy” and saying that ‘I got gratification by snapping my fingers’... who do you think you are? Did you read my msgs properly? Please learn from real animal lovers like CESAR MILAN or so many others in the national TV, who gives various techniques, like ‘snapping fingers’, ‘making a sound’ etc because animals understand body language and PERCEIVE ENERGY BETTER THAT HUMANS! I refer you to true experts from whom I will rather continue learning myself.

Let’s agree to disagree…but the least I expect in any site, is respect and professionalism….your mails show you lack both, and it is you who cannot tolerate others do not accept your insults passively. LEARN TO GIVE A BALANCE AND MATURE OPINIONS THAT MATCHES YOUR POSITION OF OFFICER OF THE WILD EMPIRE… who uses ‘emotional tires’ and then blame those who have different opinion. Do not use guilt to turn things around…learn to accept responsibility for your erratic actions and reactions…and as you say KNOW WHEN TO LET GO!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Kate, Many thanks for your mail and encouragement. Wish you also better experiences on the site. It is important that we give feed back to improve the service and rise the standards.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
SueB, loved your story and appreciate your comments... your case is the evidence that encourages true animal lovers to do their best and communicate through the heart with those who visit our gardens... it really made me laugh that the experts are so picky on nutrition, they seem to ignore he FACT that foxes end up starving or surviving by eating WHATEVER they find in the road, in bins, good, and rotten food etc . Most of them will spend their life span in the hostility of the streets and never get to interact in a LOVING way with humans.
That is what makes all the difference in your story, but they do not seem to notice the hospitality you provided, the love and affection, the friendship that was developed, the intimacy and the trust that made possible those 3years. Thanks for sharing, because4me (and I am sure many others) that is what lives in your memory and in those you share the story with...that is what rises consciousness and lifts our hearts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[Ukwildlifeo]

Did the fox cub ever come back?