BABY FOX in the Gdn- Pros&Cons.PLEASE

[valleyforge]

Originally Posted by Sue B

I reared him on milky cocoa -

No doubt this will be seen as another personal attack by some, but if you post information such as this on an open forum (where it may be discovered and referred to by anyone searching for insights on how to rear a fox cub), I feel it really needs to be accompanied by a balancing statement ... in fact, it's my duty to do so.

This information therefore is not a criticism of Sue B, or of anyone in a similar situation, who is/was truly trying to do their best for an 'orphaned' animal, but I'm afraid that it is really all too easy to do accidental and unforeseen harm, whilst acting out of kindness.

First of all, let's look at milk .... most folk will rightly assume that an infant mammal needs milk, but the most readily available milk (cow's milk) is NOT a suitable replacement for the vast majority of baby mammals ... the level of lactose is way too high to be digested properly, so may lead to diarrhea, enteritis, dehydration and in the worst case scenario, death.

There are a number of commercially available puppy milk replacers (sold in powdered form and available at vet's surgeries and pet shops), which are much better suited to a fox cub's needs, although goat's milk (now increasingly available at supermarkets) is also suitable with the addition of multivitamin drops.

However, the main issue here is in the giving of cocoa (the principle ingredient of chocolate also of course) ... this contains the alkaloid thiobromine, which causes serious poisoning in many mammals, including dogs and foxes (which are closely related members of the dog family).

Dogs/foxes are unable to metabolize the chemical properly (in the way that we can), so that it effectively continues to circulate within their systems, repeatedly poisoning them.

See Theobromine poisoning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The following short article illustrates that thiobromine is an effective poison for foxes also: Theobromine intoxication in a red fox and a Europe... [J Wildl Dis. 2001] - PubMed result

If as Sue B states, the fox survived with her for 3 years, then possibly he didn't ingest sufficient to cause lasting harm to his liver, and I too sincerely hope that he made a success of living in the wild.

[Words]

Thanks for posting the link to the research on theobromine. Reading the research paper, while it does advise caution it also indicates that the results are speculative and that they have no data on the amounts ingested, although the proximity of apparently industrial quantities of chocolate waste suggest the volume must have been high and extended over a long period (the obesity).

But yes, chocolate isn't a good idea and the data contra indicating for dogs is strong.

[Sue B]

Yes- I did actually have a fox for THREE YEAR'S and he was very healthy.
Forgot to add that he never bothered the neighbour's chicken's when
he got out his run- I had a big silly Afghan dog who did that-
she actually killed one. !
Perhap's it was the cocoa that put him off chicken's !!!!!****

[spaa]

No Picidae, could not disagree with you more… I have been in touch with ‘wild animals’ for long time and the unusual experience prompt me to seek for the advice of EXPERTS I though knew a little bit more than they obviously know… to overreact as you did, sending a msg so charged with judgements and condemnation is NOT PROFESSIONAL AT ALL. I left my mail expressing my opinion, which I still hold, because people like you should learn to tame their manners and have people skills. Many are used to vent opinions in a violent outburst ‘in the name of animal welfare’ expecting that a late apology will suffice. NO the damage was done!
And after you sent another ridiculous mail referring to my love for animals as “fluffy” and saying that ‘I got gratification by snapping my fingers’... who do you think you are? Did you read my msgs properly? Please learn from real animal lovers like CESAR MILAN or so many others in the national TV, who gives various techniques, like ‘snapping fingers’, ‘making a sound’ etc because animals understand body language and PERCEIVE ENERGY BETTER THAT HUMANS! I refer you to true experts from whom I will rather continue learning myself.

Let’s agree to disagree…but the least I expect in any site, is respect and professionalism….your mails show you lack both, and it is you who cannot tolerate others do not accept your insults passively. LEARN TO GIVE A BALANCE AND MATURE OPINIONS THAT MATCHES YOUR POSITION OF OFFICER OF THE WILD EMPIRE… who uses ‘emotional tires’ and then blame those who have different opinion. Do not use guilt to turn things around…learn to accept responsibility for your erratic actions and reactions…and as you say KNOW WHEN TO LET GO!

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Kate, Many thanks for your mail and encouragement. Wish you also better experiences on the site. It is important that we give feed back to improve the service and rise the standards.
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SueB, loved your story and appreciate your comments... your case is the evidence that encourages true animal lovers to do their best and communicate through the heart with those who visit our gardens... it really made me laugh that the experts are so picky on nutrition, they seem to ignore he FACT that foxes end up starving or surviving by eating WHATEVER they find in the road, in bins, good, and rotten food etc . Most of them will spend their life span in the hostility of the streets and never get to interact in a LOVING way with humans.
That is what makes all the difference in your story, but they do not seem to notice the hospitality you provided, the love and affection, the friendship that was developed, the intimacy and the trust that made possible those 3years. Thanks for sharing, because4me (and I am sure many others) that is what lives in your memory and in those you share the story with...that is what rises consciousness and lifts our hearts.
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[Ukwildlifeo]

Did the fox cub ever come back?

[conisag]

Originally Posted by Hedgehoggy

I’m astounded. It takes a lot to ruffle my feathers, but I just read your story in disbelief. If the cub was similar in size to Words’ first photo, then, as already stated to you, it would be a CONCERN. The cub is NOT independent at that age. Not only were you given advice on how to help the cub, you were also given details of your local Wildlife Centres, which would have come and collected the cub and rehabilitated it safely. Imo, the fact that you completely ignored all advice suggests you had no genuine concern for the cub’s welfare, and merely continued to entice the cub into your house for your own gratification, and then rejecting it after you’d had your evening’s entertainment. How confusingly cruel for the poor little mite.

I sincerely hope the cub had the good fortune to be found by a genuinely caring person who would have used their common sense and got it the help it so obviously was desperately seeking.

Altho i allways appreciate peoples concern for animals, this woman was only trying her best in the interest of the animal.

Now i also agree with what you've said and if i had this dilemma the options for me would be simple, I would either keep it as a legitimate pet, it would have its injections, a crate a bed proper food and it would be walked every single night for at least an hour...OOOOR it would be handed to a wildlife sanctuary in the hope it could return to the wild, the choice wouldn't be easy but I would do what I felt would be easiest for the fox...in this case I feel (and this is just my opinion not a fact) I feel I would have kept the animal as it seems it does have an identity problem and there would always be a chance of that animal running up to humans in the hope of food/warmth and love causing risk to both fox and human, the best option for ME would be to try to keep it or have it re-homed.

[77cat77]

I found this site quite by chance. Last night 8pm sitting by my window, there was a massive bang -thought someone was breaking in! The blind was partially open and I could see the underside of what looked like a small dog (smallish fox). My kitten was still out (xexexexexexe wouldnt come in!) I opened the door to shoe the animal away....worried incase he would attack/fight my kitten. The fox disappeared before I even saw it. I retrieved my kitten, and coming back in, I noticed what looked like a tiny dark brown teddy-bear - oh soooo sweet! I sussed that the fox had either dropped the cub from the high fence, or she lost her balance and fell. I don't know how young this cub was....but his eyes were open...two tiny chocolate buttons. He couldnt even stand up he was that young - half the size of my kitten. I came straight in, pulled the blinds and turned the outside lights off....hoping mum would come back. Not wanting to disturb anything....I didnt check again until 1am. He was still there - wriggled about a foot along the patio. No sign of mum..so I googled in for what to do. I took out a soft blanket, scooped him up and put him on it and lay a small cardboard box on its side to keep the wind off. I know, I hear you cry 'dont touch him'..but he was going to smell of our blanket anyway. I came back in and found this site with info on The London Wildcare Trust (0208 6476230) posted by hedgehoggy. They told me the mum would have come by now...and from what I described (dragging back legs) they said it was probably abandoned due to injury. I explained I had touched it, they said that it didnt matter..that would NOT have stopped the mum taking him if he was okay. They told me to put this baby in the blanket, in the box and bring him in and keep him warm. The minute I did this...he curled up all peaceful and went to sleep. I had London Wildcare Trust (24hr) on the phone, and I offered to give the baby fox some kitten milk (made from goats milk - cows milk is REALLY BAD for animals) but she said it would give him diarrhoea, and asked me to mix 1 litre water, 1teaspoon salt, 1 tablespoon sugar to rehydrate him. All he did was sleep so never took it. Jan, at the wildcare trust got me to pick him up and do somebasic checks on him to assess him over the phone. Ted - the founder came the next morning for him. He checked him over, assessed he didn't appear to have broken anything...but that something was wrong with his hips by the way one leg was, and he would be xrayed. He obviously got injured in the fall - our fences are very high.
My reason for joining and writing all this is three fold. 1), I can only thank my lucky stars (and the baby fox's) that I found this website and got the posted link to the London Wildcare Trust....their advice is second to none.....2), They did say you are better to call them, NOT the RSPCA, who would come out, but would then take the animal and put it down humanely!..3) I was quite saddened by the aggression that has been shown in some of the posts in response to Spaa's postings. I can see that this person did what they thought was right, and obviously didnt make the best decision.....to phone the professionals is the right thing to do. But they make it quite plain they KNOW the animals place is in the wild. Yes gently rebuke them, and point out the errors.....but the onslaught of 2-3 of the replies was uncalled for and really upsetting. I am quite sure my turn will be next I make this post so that if someone has a similar situation...that they see to PLEASE PHONE THE WILDLIFE TRUST and TAKE their advice. Hopefully our little chocolate teddy bear will be ready for release during the month of August when he gets to around 5 months! xx

[Cowgirl]

That was lovely 77cat. Good on you & welcome to WAB. It's always difficult trying to decide which course of action is the right thing. Professional help is always the first step, but I can understand Spaa's dilemma it's difficult when people have good intentions but there is a saying about good intentions paving the road to hell (or something like that). I agree some people on this site can let their kneejerk reaction get in the way of a reply. I am guilty of this way as well, hopefully it doesn't happen too often . I occaisionaly have to send out e-mails to customers & have to be really careful about what I say (I often have to edit/delete a lot of my responses )

I hope little foxy is ok & will live a long & happy life in the wild & this thread hasn't put you off WAB, it really is a great site & trolls get short shrift from the moderators.

[Jim Ford]

Originally Posted by 77cat77

I found this site quite by chance. Last night 8pm sitting by my window, there was a massive bang -thought someone was breaking in!
<snip>
Hopefully our little chocolate teddy bear will be ready for release during the month of August when he gets to around 5 months! xx

You've made a very serious error of judgement - you should have broken your posting into more easily readable paragraphs!
;^)


More seriously, I think you did well. All wildlife is under pressure from human activity and it's nice to redress the balance even in a small way.

Jim

[77cat77]

Many thanks for your kind words Cowgirl...and I think it is a very fine line for doing right for doing wrong. I can only reiterate....google up for advice, and then find a phone number of an appropriate body. I was quite prepared to give this little 'teddy' kitten milk (goats milk), and the lady got advice, rang me back and said not to (gives them diarrhoea).

Jim....ha ha ha..you are not wrong...I do waffle a bit..but you know, my excuse is that I wanted to give as full a picture as possible to show what I did and why...just incase someone wanted to shoot me down in flames...but more importantly, so that someone else in a similar situation can see what to do - and where to get advice too.

Little 'teddy' (as I call him - foxy was too 'bingo' ;o) is case 431, if anyone wanted to ring the London Wildlife Trust (number posted a couple of times previous). It says on the site that I can only ring in twice for updates ( am sure they wouldn't hold me to this..probably a way of dissuading daily calls), I shall ring next week once he has had his xrays....and again further down the line. He should be ready for release sometime in August. So working back in months..that makes him currently only a few weeks old.

Does anyone know if there is a facility of adding your own photos - or posting them somewhere..have a couple of real cuties..where you can see how young he is..all snug in a yellow blanket and would like to share it.

Jim - paragraphs! :O) xxxx