Badger Farms and TB

[werdnal]

Just heard on radio news that new research published in USA says that Badgers are not guilty of spreading TB to cattle, and in fact evidence suggests cattle are infecting badgers and that badger culling can have an adverse effect on the spread of TB.

I have no experience in farming, although I do live in a mainly dairy farming area, but have always thought it rather short sighted to blame just one species for the whole TB thing. After all, when TB was previlant in humans, it was down to poor, damp and over populated living conditions. With modern intensive farming meaning cattle are housed in an artificial environment for the winter months, surely this must have an impact on the spread of such a disease.

I appreciate this is a very emotive issue and don't want to start any argument, but would be interested to hear other member's comments.

[Mr Mag00]

I have no experience in farming, although I do live in a mainly dairy farming area, but have always thought it rather short sighted to blame just one species for the whole TB thing. After all, when TB was previlant in humans, it was down to poor, damp and over populated living conditions. With modern intensive farming meaning cattle are housed in an artificial environment for the winter months, surely this must have an impact on the spread of such a disease.

i have thought this for a number of years. I have also heard that the majority of mustelids (sp?) family carry TB
Despite farmers denying this, the animals are stressed they are milk producing machines. feeding cattle indoors encourages the badger in to feed urinate and defeacate in the barns. I have spoken to farmers about trying to make the barns badger proof as best as possible, most are not interested.

[Earth Hart]

MAFF or should I say DEFRA have had a report for the last 11yrs that has never been published, reason being, it proved/showed that badgers were not at fault passing BTB to cattle.

The culprit appears to be animal husbandry & birds, they feed on cowpats, fly off to another field & the cowpat on their feet comes off on the grass, another cow comes along & eats said gress & Bingo! infected cow. Put cows in barn for winter, cough, cough, sneeze & ... yuo've guest it the herd contract BTB. The research for this report wa done here in the west country. Live traping of birds & badgers took place in infected areas & it was a young student who suggested ckecking the pats for infection, guess who got the job?

It was that student who loaned me the report. As it has never been published I can't go into detail as I was not supposed to see it.

[Owl-Light]

Check out The Badger Trust TB Campaign for info.

[Alan]

The US badger is a different species, though I would have thought still carries TB in the same way.

This subject has been covered widely in past threads, but will no doubt come up time and time again.

say NO to Badger cull.

[clairey]

It'll be intersting to see what comes out of the recent consultation on this from DEFRA. I used to work on a project looking at TB in wildlife and spending that much time on dairy farms makes you think about the husbandry issue but nearly every farmer only wants the badgers out of the way. Things are not as black and white as they seem.

[Earth Hart]

Originally Posted by Sheryl LaBouchardiere

Check out The Badger Trust TB Campaign for info.

I've bookmarked it for later, thanks.

A small group of us during the early '80s checked out cattle farms in winter, we wrote about what we saw. No one took any notice of us. Sadly all has come to pass, what with BSE, F&M & BTB. Animal Husbandry is the main cause of all the ills that have fell upon cattle. Cattle farmers have a lot to answer for. They need to clean up their act or face closure.

[Earth Hart]

Originally Posted by clairey

It'll be intersting to see what comes out of the recent consultation on this from DEFRA. I used to work on a project looking at TB in wildlife and spending that much time on dairy farms makes you think about the husbandry issue but nearly every farmer only wants the badgers out of the way. Things are not as black and white as they seem.

Looking after cattle properly costs money, find a scapegoat(brock) & let someone else cough(no pun intended) up the money for the culling.

[werdnal]

[quote=Alan]The US badger is a different species, though I would have thought still carries TB in the same way.QUOTE]

On hearing further reports since, I think they said that the research was published in USA, but was from data collected in the UK on british badgers.

[Earth Hart]

Originally Posted by werdnal

On hearing further reports since, I think they said that the research was published in USA, but was from data collected in the UK on british badgers.

Yes it was. Too hot for DEFRA to publish themselves I think as they have to keep the farmers happy. Glad it's come out at last but someone will try & rubbish it.

[Deerhunter]

"Confirmation that cattle rapidly spread TB to badgers was obtained as the result of another catastrophe created by farmers – foot and mouth disease (FMD). "

This is a quote from the Badger Trust.

Badger Trust: News release


As an animal loving farmer I am confused at the suggestion that I would want TB or Foot and Mouth.

If I have either it puts my livelihood in jeopardy !!!


I want a bit of every animal on my farm, but not a population out of control.

[tiggertoo]

I spoke with an elderly gentleman at a badger conference a couple years ago who for many years has been stating that TB was the result of inappropriate husbandry of cattle. He spoke of just after the war when TB was eradicated from the UK herd through strict disinfection of sheds and property and allowing air to pass freely through sheds.

Farmers do have it hard with supermarkets driving prices for milk to farmers etc down, with a market place that is fickle and open to crashes as a result of such things as BSE, Salmonella in eggs etc. but to suggest that badgers are the cause of bTB when so many other factors contribute is both short sited and potentially damaging. A report to DEFRA came out quietly a couple of years ago identifying roe deer as a TB reservoir and thankfully no one shouted for a roe deer cull.

Yes there is a lot of information out there on this but there is also a great deal of emotive tosh. There has to be a holistic approach to this issue with all sides sitting down and looking at the scientific research (yes the Krebs trial indicated something like a 27% increase in the incidence of bTB as a result of the proactive culling - although the Krebs trial in itself was apparently flawed with farmers not allowing teams onto land etc.)

The research being carried out (or recently completed) with regard to snares and badgers I find particularly distasteful. No cull has been agreed yet here we are DEFRA examining methods to carry out the cull by placing live badgers into snares for several hours at a time to see what happens!

Tiggertoo

[Deerhunter]

""I spoke with an elderly gentleman at a badger conference a couple years ago who for many years has been stating that TB was the result of inappropriate husbandry of cattle."

And what is inappropriate ?

"He spoke of just after the war when TB was eradicated from the UK herd through strict disinfection of sheds and property and allowing air to pass freely through sheds. "

But Bedgers were being culled at this time.

"Farmers do have it hard with supermarkets driving prices for milk to farmers etc down, with a market place that is fickle and open to crashes as a result of such things as BSE, Salmonella in eggs etc. but to suggest that badgers are the cause of bTB when so many other factors contribute is both short sited and potentially damaging."

What other factors?

"A report to DEFRA came out quietly a couple of years ago identifying roe deer as a TB reservoir and thankfully no one shouted for a roe deer cull. "

Do you have a link?

I have almost no roe deer but am over-run by Badgers. What is causing reactors in my cattle?


"No cull has been agreed yet here we are DEFRA examining methods to carry out the cull by placing live badgers into snares for several hours at a time to see what happens!"


Where are they doing this?

[tiggertoo]

Firstly let me state clearly that I am not blaming farmers for all the ills in the world, neither am I against a cull – nor am I for a cull! What I attempted to state was that there has to be a holistic approach to the problem of bTB with nothing ruled out but at the same time not jumping to conclusions based on unfounded information.


""I spoke with an elderly gentleman at a badger conference a couple years ago who for many years has been stating that TB was the result of inappropriate husbandry of cattle."

And what is inappropriate ??

What was meant by this was the fact that keeping cattle penned in barns and byres with limited ventilation and in high densities resulting in the barn or byre to become warm and moist was inappropriate. If cattle are in such environments there is a high potential of cattle to cattle transmission – more so than if the shed was well ventilated with lower cattle densities.

"Farmers do have it hard with supermarkets driving prices for milk to farmers etc down, with a market place that is fickle and open to crashes as a result of such things as BSE, Salmonella in eggs etc. but to suggest that badgers are the cause of bTB when so many other factors contribute is both short sited and potentially damaging."

What other factors?

What I was attempting to say was that there are currently so many potential contributory factors such as husbandry, cattle movements, and the skin test which is not 100% accurate at identifying animals with the disease. It is clear there is a wildlife reservoir of this disease but how much of it is a result of cattle to wildlife transfer rather than wildlife to cattle transfer a factor this is also an unknown factor at this time. There are many variables that have to be considered not only a cull of badgers.

An excerpt from http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/cvo/...fullreport.pdf

“A large survey to establish the extent of TB in wildlife other than badgers, continued during 2003. Over 4,500 carcasses of a variety of terrestrial mammal species were examined. M. bovis was identified in fallow deer, roe deer, field voles and foxes, and for the first time in the UK in muntjac, and a range of other species.”

Do we start with badgers and then move onto deer, then to field voles and then foxes and then what is next. No we have to look at how these animals are becoming infected and how the disease is being transferred to other areas – in other words we have to examine everything connected with this problem and come up with a viable and effective solution.

Do you have a link?

I have almost no roe deer but am over-run by Badgers. What is causing reactors in my cattle?


See the link above.

I will find the relevant details about the snares and post a link as soon as I can.

Tiggertoo

[Deerhunter]

"What was meant by this was the fact that keeping cattle penned in barns and byres with limited ventilation and in high densities resulting in the barn or byre to become warm and moist was inappropriate. If cattle are in such environments there is a high potential of cattle to cattle transmission – more so than if the shed was well ventilated with lower cattle densities."

This is fine... but what I want to know is how warm I can keep my cattle in January, and at what density?


"What other factors?

What I was attempting to say was that there are currently so many potential contributory factors such as husbandry, cattle movements, and the skin test which is not 100% accurate at identifying animals with the disease. It is clear there is a wildlife reservoir of this disease but how much of it is a result of cattle to wildlife transfer rather than wildlife to cattle transfer a factor this is also an unknown factor at this time. There are many variables that have to be considered not only a cull of badgers. "

This is correct. I am happy to test and cull my cows. Are you happy to thin out Badgers?

“A large survey to establish the extent of TB in wildlife other than badgers, continued during 2003. Over 4,500 carcasses of a variety of terrestrial mammal species were examined. M. bovis was identified in fallow deer, roe deer, field voles and foxes, and for the first time in the UK in muntjac, and a range of other species.”

Do we start with badgers and then move onto deer, then to field voles and then foxes and then what is next. No we have to look at how these animals are becoming infected and how the disease is being transferred to other areas – in other words we have to examine everything connected with this problem and come up with a viable and effective solution"

I suspect you know there is a huge difference between these animals. I have a few voles but they don't plough my fields. I have dozens of Badgers and they do.

[tiggertoo]

This is fine... but what I want to know is how warm I can keep my cattle in January, and at what density?

I honestly do not know if there is an optimum temperature/humidity level that allows the bTB bug to spread. This is an area that may require research to find an answer (if one does not already exist )- again we have to take a holistic approach.

This is correct. I am happy to test and cull my cows. Are you happy to thin out Badgers?

Again We must take a holistic approach where nothing is ruled out but decisions must be taken on cold hard scientific fact nopt unfounded assumptions. At the same time we cannot be allowed to be overtaken by emotive arguments (on both sides). If a cull is decided upon (from appropriate scientic information not unfounded attempts to quiten one side of the argument) then so be it.

What is your point of veiw on pre movment testing and movement restirctions? Surley moving cattle from high risk areas to other lower risk areas is dangerous. As stated earleir we must take a holistic approach.


“A large survey to establish the extent of TB in wildlife other than badgers, continued during 2003. Over 4,500 carcasses of a variety of terrestrial mammal species were examined. M. bovis was identified in fallow deer, roe deer, field voles and foxes, and for the first time in the UK in muntjac, and a range of other species.”

Do we start with badgers and then move onto deer, then to field voles and then foxes and then what is next. No we have to look at how these animals are becoming infected and how the disease is being transferred to other areas – in other words we have to examine everything connected with this problem and come up with a viable and effective solution"

I suspect you know there is a huge difference between these animals. I have a few voles but they don't plough my fields. I have dozens of Badgers and they do.

What I attemted to get over here was the fact that it may not only be badgers to blame - again - we must take a holistic approach that includes full measures and not jump to unfounded conclusions and emotive arguments (using an emotive argument!)

Is it the damage to your fields that upset you?

[Imaginos]

Originally Posted by Owl-Light

Check out The Badger Trust TB Campaign for info.

I can't get this link-connection timed out or something. But I'll use this opportunity to mention that asking the badger trust for information on TB is like asking the Oil industry for information on global warming; a one-sided view that attempts to make the case for their champion whatever the evidence.
I'd like to see a link for the US report, or at least the journal it has been published in so I can chase it up & not the half-baked media stories that surround it.

[speckled wood]

I have to say that I am against a Badger cull but there is evidence that there is a problem and a solution needs to be found, perhaps an immunisation plan for Badgers could be an option and I believe that it has been suggested.

I have seen Badger setts that occupy a large amount of ground and can understand that some farmers might feel a bit peeved if they end up with having several such setts on a smallish farm.

I do come from a farming family and my late parents were working farmers and most of my relatives are still working farmers in that industry (and I do use the term "industry" deliberately). until about 40 years years ago most of my farming relatives made a very good living on what are not classed as small farms (less than 200 acres and some of them on farms of less than 100 acres), few of them now make what would be classified as a good living, much of the reason is down to market conditions and income being driven down by supermarkets and their control of the market, a result of course is that simply to survive farmers are being forced to use their land on an industrial and intensive scale. going back to my own farming relatives something in common in all of them is that they are up to their necks in debt and simply working themselves to death for 80 hours a week and more and doing what is real physical hard work followed by hours of paperwork to comply with various legislation .... perhaps not surprising that there is a high incidence of suicide and mental illness amongst the farming community.

I do think that people do need to appreciate the realities for most working farmers and the reality that most of them actually only farm their land so intensively simply because that is the only way that they can exist under the current market conditions.

[Earth Hart]

If you want to eradicate BTB, then don't barn your cattle over winter, farmers pamper them too much. Cattle can survive outside during the winter, it's just for the farmer's convenience that they are barned. How warm do my cattle need to be? They have lived on the land far longer than you, leave them there & you will see a rapid decline in BTB.

[speckled wood]

Originally Posted by Earth Hart

If you want to eradicate BTB, then don't barn your cattle over winter, farmers pamper them too much. Cattle can survive outside during the winter, it's just for the farmer's convenience that they are barned. How warm do my cattle need to be? They have lived on the land far longer than you, leave them there & you will see a rapid decline in BTB.

Rest assured that very few farmers would "barn" their cattle in winter were there no a real need to do so, climate in the south west of England is such that it is not always neccessary to do so, elsewhere in the UK conditions are such that in some places farmers really do need to barn their cattle in the winter.

[Imaginos]

Originally Posted by Earth Hart

If you want to eradicate BTB, then don't barn your cattle over winter, farmers pamper them too much. Cattle can survive outside during the winter, it's just for the farmer's convenience that they are barned. How warm do my cattle need to be? They have lived on the land far longer than you, leave them there & you will see a rapid decline in BTB.

I would guess that the current breeds of cattle haven't lived on the land far longer than the human race and certain of them will not be tolerant of colder conditions.
I also get the feeling that even early on in our farming heritage cattle were protected from cold weather (even to the extent of living above he cattle in the winter to benefit from their warmth).
Finally, what proof is there that Bovine TB is similar to Human TB in its rate of transferral in cramped conditions? I find it interesting that people reject one view in favour of another purely on the grounds that they like badgers...I quite like mosquitoes, but I'm sure I'd be in a minority against them being wiped out, if it were considered necessary.

[Imaginos]

Originally Posted by Earth Hart

If you want to eradicate BTB, then don't barn your cattle over winter, farmers pamper them too much. Cattle can survive outside during the winter, it's just for the farmer's convenience that they are barned. How warm do my cattle need to be? They have lived on the land far longer than you, leave them there & you will see a rapid decline in BTB.

I would guess that the current breeds of cattle haven't lived on the land far longer than the human race and certain of them will not be tolerant of colder conditions.
I also get the feeling that even early on in our farming heritage cattle were protected from cold weather (even to the extent of living above he cattle in the winter to benefit from their warmth).
Finally, what proof is there that Bovine TB is similar to Human TB in its rate of transferral in cramped conditions? It does seem to make sense, but then it also makes sense if you look at a lot of the research that has been done (check Alan's link for some papers) that badgers are the vector. I find it interesting that people reject one view in favour of another purely on the grounds that they like badgers...I quite like mosquitoes, but I'm sure I'd be in a minority against them being wiped out, if it were considered necessary.

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by tiggertoo

What is your point of veiw on pre movment testing and movement restirctions? Surley moving cattle from high risk areas to other lower risk areas is dangerous. As stated earleir we must take a holistic approach.


“A large survey to establish the extent of TB in wildlife other than badgers, continued during 2003. Over 4,500 carcasses of a variety of terrestrial mammal species were examined. M. bovis was identified in fallow deer, roe deer, field voles and foxes, and for the first time in the UK in muntjac, and a range of other species.”

Do we start with badgers and then move onto deer, then to field voles and then foxes and then what is next. No we have to look at how these animals are becoming infected and how the disease is being transferred to other areas – in other words we have to examine everything connected with this problem and come up with a viable and effective solution"

I suspect you know there is a huge difference between these animals. I have a few voles but they don't plough my fields. I have dozens of Badgers and they do.

What I attemted to get over here was the fact that it may not only be badgers to blame - again - we must take a holistic approach that includes full measures and not jump to unfounded conclusions and emotive arguments (using an emotive argument!)

Is it the damage to your fields that upset you?

I am happy with pre-movement testing.

I believe the behaviour of Badgers make it more likely that they spread Bovine TB than other creatures. Voles are eaten, Foxes and Deer are culled. Badgers are breeding out of control.

And yes, the damage to my fields is very annoying.

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by Earth Hart

If you want to eradicate BTB, then don't barn your cattle over winter, farmers pamper them too much. Cattle can survive outside during the winter, it's just for the farmer's convenience that they are barned. How warm do my cattle need to be? They have lived on the land far longer than you, leave them there & you will see a rapid decline in BTB.

Yes, and I will see a rapid decline in their condition as well.

So you think if I leave my cattle out on the top of Exmoor this winter I will have no TB reactors?

Any reasoning behind this?

I can of course leave my cows out all winter. I can also lamb outside. But I have this problem. I have to sell a product at the end of the year.