Pine Martens in southern England?

[PMG]

Martins need a lot of territory space and they prefer it to be without a lot of humans - tho once they get used to being fed at certain houses and places they can be quite cheeky. I think the New Forest is the wrong sort of habitat and too intersected by roads and overused by people - too much pressure for a critter - like the wild cat - who likes to get by with as little intrusion as poss.

Pauline

[Rob_D]

http://www.vwt.org.uk/publications/P...n_response.pdf

I think there are a few questions to be answered before any reintroduction should be considered (not least to meet international guidelines). It'd be great to have them back, but I don't think it'll happen like the Polecats because lowland England hasn't enough woodland left.

[james bennet]

A very interesting report Rob, thanks for providing the link. When even the VWT is against reintroduction I get the feeling it won't happen any time soon. Looks like I'll have to go to Scotland if I'm going to see one in my lifetime. Having said that, the sightings map seems to place one in the new forest, so you never know ...

[james bennet]

Originally Posted by Rob_D

http://www.vwt.org.uk/publications/P...n_response.pdf

I think there are a few questions to be answered before any reintroduction should be considered (not least to meet international guidelines). It'd be great to have them back, but I don't think it'll happen like the Polecats because lowland England hasn't enough woodland left.

As an attempt to breathe new life into this thread, I thought I'd try and pick a few holes in the VWT report which Ron has highlighted... I have to say I was a little dismayed when reading it as it seems the VWT is almost faling over itself to try and find reasons not to press ahead with reintroductions. Some of their arguments I find convincing, some less so.

For example, to list their worst argument first, they suggest both that there are too many foxes now in southern england, and that there is an insufficient small mammal prey base for martens. Surely, both situations can't exist? Foxes prey largely on small mammals - much the same as martens - so lots of foxes would suggest lots of prey. Even were there to be lots of foxes, their threat to martens is minimal: a study in Lithuania - where both martens and foxes are abundant - suggested that only 0.2% of a fox's diet was carnivores (which would probably include stoats and weasels too).

I accept that the landscape of Britain has changed massively from the time when martens were last widespread, and that our suitable areas of wilderness have contracted massively, but within these limitations there is still plenty of good habitat. And after all, Ireland, which is far less wooded (and I admit, less populated!) than England, has a thriving and expanding marten population. The New Forest in hampshire is just one region where I think martens could not just exist, but sustain themselves and expand as well. It is wrong to think their habitat is only pine forest - broadleaved woodland is a far richer habitat for them, they have only been pushed into upland pine forests by persecution.

So there you have my thoughts on the subject anyway; feel free to disagree with me, I promise I won't be offended! But I just can't shake the image from my head of one day having martens back in my woods!

[camo]

Hi James

My gut feeling is that I would be against such an introduction as the Pine Martin is very close in size and prey needs to the existing predators (W,S,&Pc) and I think such an introduction would seriousely upset the balance with at least one species suffering. Having said that because the Martin is specific in its habitat requirements whereas Stoat, Weasel and Polecat would probably all survive outside of the forest. Also on the positive side any species seeking to rebuild a population will benefit from the development of a number of less related groups.

Whilst i would be against such an introduction in the South I am more in favour of reintroduction of Wolves, Lynx and Beavers as there are gaps in the food chain which each can fill. To balance this argument may be the Lynx would compete with the Wildcat and Pine Martin and the Wolf may prey on both.

All reintroductions are a gamble because in the absence of a specific species other species will evolve and fill gaps in the chain. It would be easy if the Wolf only preyed on the Red Deer, The Lynx lived where the WildCat didn't and the Pine Martin preyed on the Grey Squirrel and Mink however nobody really knows.

I appreciate this is a weak argument and I think much of the passion behind reintroducing species from the way past is a romantic notion of what we would like to see.

Roy

[Ukwildlifeo]

There is another thing that would be in the favour of reintroducing pine martens, they predate one prey species that other predators rarely touch: Grey squirrels. They could use some natural control

[Rob_D]

James, like you, I'd love to think that pine marten could thrive in the New Forest or in Breckland. I don't have the knowledge to form my own opinion. But you have not addressed the VWT's main issue - the surviving populations in England and Wales. You need to answer questions 1,2 &3 on page 6 and not least meet international guidelines.

2. "If the surviving marten populations in England and Wales are struggling to thrive, what are the critical factors that are limiting them and preventing natural recovery? If we don’t know what those factors are, and if we cannot show that they no longer act as a constraint, is reintroduction a responsible step to take? Might a reintroduced population also stagnate for the same reasons?"

What makes the New Forest is any better than the current relict areas like Kielder or Shropshire where the martens are struggling?

The VWT seems negative, but all they are saying is that we need to answer these questions first. Those who proposed the re-introduction (PTES) prefer to pretend the relict populations don't exist. Isn't that shameful? Surely we must not refuse to help or study the rarest native mammal in England and Wales just because it suits our aims for a high profile re-introduction.

See also this link Wildlife Trust hunts for pine marten in Wark and Kielder - Northumberland communities - Bellingham.

[deepest blue]

pine marten alive and well in the New Forest, sighted march 2011 got a good view of one along side of a ride in the forest, (isolated spot) I have found scent marking pooh in the middle of a track unsure if its PM or Badger but from the info i can find its PM.

[Flywaver]

How about Thetford Forest? Its the largest lowland Pine forest in Britain.
Which is the best area to find Red Squirrels in Thetford Forest?

[Rob_D]

Welcome deepest_blue and congrats on the sighting. If you haven't already, you might want to contact the VWT to report your sighting. Pine Martens - The Vincent Wildlife Trust

It seems it can be very hard to ID PM scats accurately. Most common seems to be confusing Fox for PM.

This highlights the fact that marten and fox scats can appear morphologically similar, making it incredibly difficult to determine the origin visually.

I know we found one or two scats in N Yorks which looked very like the classic PM scat in shape, but the DNA tests came back as Fox. Sometimes DNA tests are the only conclusive way but I guess if the scat is up a tree somewhere, it's much less likely to be a Fox!

According to their report there were 5 good quality PM sightings in the S Hants area between 2000-2005, so perhaps there's little doubt there are some present in the New Forest. The question is how did they get there? The report shows a captive collection near to the New Forest. DNA research will give evidence about the origins of the different groups around the British Isles, but it seems the picture is still emerging. At least it's good news that one was confirmed in Grizedale.