Roadkill Polecat or hybrid?

[Putorius]

Ok, this is my first attempt to get an image up.

Here is a young hob, looks more like a genuine European polecat than any of the animals on the pictorial guide provided by the Vincent Wildlife Trust, and yet he is a hutch bred ferret. He is also totally unrelated to the young jill pictured in my avator. If a photograph of this animal was sent to the Vincent Wildlife trust, had it been discovered as road kill, as part of the polecat distribution survey, would it have been marked down as a polecat or a hybrid?





Here is another of the same animal;



And another;



And another;



Here is another unrelated animal, the young hutch bred jill in my avator;



Here is another of the same jill;



Here is a jill that is 1/4 likely feral ferret/wild polecat. Her grandmother escaped and was mated by an unknown "free range" animal. The resulting progeny (seven kits) all looked to all intents and purposes exactly like the animal in my avator, but not quite as dark as the animal represented in the first of the images in this thread..



Here she is again. This animal is not dissimilar to what most people consider by appearences to be a "polecat". The animal pictured however is at least 75% multi generation hutch bred ferret, (with albinos, sandies etc in the mix) probably more. Please also note, the intensity of colour and darkness varies surprisingly throughout the year. The same animal can appear considerably different at certain times of the year than at others adding to the confusion.



Interestingly enough, the litter brother to the animal pictured above, is also the father of the darker jill in my avator. Variation indeed.



Lastly, all the animals pictured are used regularly in the control of rabbits and rats. Here`s the result of a mornings ratting with ferrets and well behaved terriers at a local pet`s corner where shooting, trapping and poisoning (thankfully!) cannot be utilised.




Regards,

P

[Putorius]

It looks as if we agree on something anyway Rob!

Originally Posted by Putorius

Q Is a great deal of time wasted pondering whether an animal is a polecat or ferret by physical appearence alone without taking into account any of the above or even considering the possability of variation among individuals?

A Yes!

Q Does it matter?

A If it looks like a polecat, smells like a polecat, behaves like a polecat, and lives like a polecat whilst occupying the same niche as a polecat, then no. Not in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Rob_D

I guess DNA is the only way to know if it is really "pure" but actually I am now of the opinion that it does not matter too much.

[bigdave60dog]

If it is an unpopulated area where no-one goes ferreting then it is probably a Polecat. But I have had ferrets that are coloured exactly like that one.
There is really no reason why it could not be either but I have never heard of ferrets colonising wild places as do polecats.
Dave

[Farplace]

Is there a size difference between ferrets and polecats?

[RKB]

Putorious, do you have a link of what you consider to be a genuine 100% European Polecat?

Because your assessment of what has happened in Britian (2000 years of ferret domestication and escapes) has presumably happened right across the Polecat's range, so logically there cannot be any unadulterated Polecats anywhere where humans have been in Eurasia - which is essentially everywhere.

So what is your benchmark for what a Polecat looks like? How can determine what an original Polecat looked like, and that your idea is correct?

In essence I don't think it actually matters, and we should stop bothering to separate them now. The animals in the wild now are acting and living as native Polecats, regardless of their ancestry, and it's not like we can selecting cull out the ferret-types. The situation is the same as with Goshawks, which are descended from wild and feral birds, yet nobody gives this a second thought today and they are still specially protected as if they were all kosher native types. All that's happened with Polecats is that we've got a population now that has some cosmetic variation in the pelage that it maybe didn't have before. They will tend to converge after a few dozen generations.

I do wonder what the incidence of feral ferrets has been though - maybe they have not been as prevalent as you suppose? I have never seen one in the wild. The best source would be gamekeepers' records, but this only takes us back so far.

[Fauna]

Originally Posted by RKB

In essence I don't think it actually matters, and we should stop bothering to separate them now. The animals in the wild now are acting and living as native Polecats, regardless of their ancestry, and it's not like we can selecting cull out the ferret-types. The situation is the same as with Goshawks, which are descended from wild and feral birds, yet nobody gives this a second thought today and they are still specially protected as if they were all kosher native types. All that's happened with Polecats is that we've got a population now that has some cosmetic variation in the pelage that it maybe didn't have before. They will tend to converge after a few dozen generations.

I agree with everything you have said here mate


Though i do think Putorius has raised some good questions here.


I myself have yet to see any hutch breed ferrets in my area of Wales that comes close to what is "percieved has the classic Polecat". This is through visiting many local shows (helped to judge a few) and breeders (i'm not saying that they don't exsist). But yet i have found many road kills and seen a few live specimens that do...it would be interesting to know how many of these have "ferret" blood in them?

My most recent was a few months back that was found dead near the Pot Noodle factory in Crumlin...this one was a very large muscular Hob and untill now i have forgotten that it is still in my compost bin (i wanted the skull).

Some i had collected by a local Ranger who was doing a study on the local Polecats. I'm sure they where sent off for DNA etc. There was also a litter born at the otherside of my village which i believe he managed to have checked...i will give him a phone this week and see if i get some data from this study.

[Putorius]

Originally Posted by Farplace

Is there a size difference between ferrets and polecats?

In general, wild type polecat/ferrets tend to be slightly larger than hutch bred ferrets. Having said that, there are regular exceptions to the "rule" and many hutch bred ferrets are pretty large too, especially males. Basically there is incredible variation (just a there is with colour).

[Putorius]

Hi RKB.

Originally Posted by RKB

Putorious, do you have a link of what you consider to be a genuine 100% European Polecat?

Not to hand no. My general leaning/understanding is that a typical European Polecat in appearance is pretty much like the first animal in my post with the images (which is a ferret!). Very dark, white mouth area, white ear edges and thats it. But thats just my opinion.

Originally Posted by RKB

Because your assessment of what has happened in Britian (2000 years of ferret domestication and escapes) has presumably happened right across the Polecat's range, so logically there cannot be any unadulterated Polecats anywhere where humans have been in Eurasia - which is essentially everywhere.

Indeed, it is certainly possible. However I would hope that there may be more of a chance of the larger (and in places more remote) area of mainland Eurasia holdng "pure" animals than a tiny,overcrowded island such as Britain.

Originally Posted by RKB

So what is your benchmark for what a Polecat looks like?

Personally, as stated above in answer to your first question. Again, just my hunch/opinion, nothing more than that.

Originally Posted by RKB

How can determine what an original Polecat looked like, and that your idea is correct?.

I cannot of course. Equally, how can anybody else? My idea is purely a theory based on logic and a long time spent ferreting and encountering all colour types of polecat/ferrets in the wild state whilst ferreting over the years. It is also based on comparison with a conveniently very similar situation of feral animals reverting back to "wild type" very quickly through natural selection in a very short space of time, animals belonging to the same genus even, the mink. I am not claiming it to be the definitive case. Of the several incidences of various people`s jills (female ferrets) escaping and being mated by an unknown free ranging animal, whether feral ferret or polecat, that I have been privy to over the years, nearly all resulting progeny have been pretty close to that description. Some are more "typical" than others of course.

I see no compelling evidence that the other idea/theory (that there are pure unadulterated polecats in GB) is definately the case either, although I certainly wish that it was.

Originally Posted by RKB

In essence I don't think it actually matters, and we should stop bothering to separate them now. The animals in the wild now are acting and living as native Polecats, regardless of their ancestry, and it's not like we can selecting cull out the ferret-types. The situation is the same as with Goshawks, which are descended from wild and feral birds, yet nobody gives this a second thought today and they are still specially protected as if they were all kosher native types. All that's happened with Polecats is that we've got a population now that has some cosmetic variation in the pelage that it maybe didn't have before. They will tend to converge after a few dozen generations.

Now, then! I could not agree more and you have in a nutshell summed up the message that I really was trying to get across. Thankyou.

Originally Posted by RKB

I do wonder what the incidence of feral ferrets has been though - maybe they have not been as prevalent as you suppose?

Very possibly yes.

Originally Posted by RKB

I have never seen one in the wild.

You are not in the minority I assure you!

Originally Posted by RKB

The best source would be gamekeepers' records, but this only takes us back so far.

Very possibly yes. May I suggest that regular ferreters, (I have been out regularly hunting with ferrets for nearly 40 years) are in a better position to spot feral/ferrets polecat/ferrets than most. It`s not only rabbits that show themselves at the entrances to burrow systems when a ferret or two is entered into the warren. Aside from rabbits, over the years, I have also surprisingly bolted a handful of foxes (presumably the fox was asleep and startled by the unfamiliar smell of the ferret approaching as obviously a ferret would be no match for a fox), one or two stoats, a weasel, several mink, an immature otter, one adder, two hedgehogs, a feral cat, countless rats and numerous feral/ferrets or polecats of varying description, far too many than I care to remember in fact.

All the best,

P

[Putorius]

Hi Fauna,

Originally Posted by RKB

In essence I don't think it actually matters, and we should stop bothering to separate them now. The animals in the wild now are acting and living as native Polecats, regardless of their ancestry, and it's not like we can selecting cull out the ferret-types......All that's happened with Polecats is that we've got a population now that has some cosmetic variation in the pelage that it maybe didn't have before. They will tend to converge after a few dozen generations.

Originally Posted by Fauna

I agree with everything you have said here mate.

As do I.

Originally Posted by Fauna

Though i do think Putorius has raised some good questions here.

Thanks. Its always good to think for one`s self and question things.

Originally Posted by Fauna

I myself have yet to see any hutch breed ferrets in my area of Wales that comes close to what is "percieved has the classic Polecat". This is through visiting many local shows (helped to judge a few) and breeders (i'm not saying that they don't exsist).

One thing worth mentioning, for practical reasons (visibility) polecat coloured ferrets are never as popular as white or paler bodied animals among ferreters. Its considerably easier to spot an albino ferret emerging 100 yds down a hedgerow and so avoid losses than it is to spot a dark bodied animal against the undergrowth.

However, although paler animals may be more popular for hunting, (especially with Hawkers, it`s easier for a Goshawk or a Harris hawk to differentiate between a white ferret and a rabbit when "the blood is up" than in the case of a darker animal) in two cases that I know of where an unknown free ranging feral/ferret/polecat hob sired a litter by an escapee hutch bred jill, the jill concerned was albino and yet all the kits were very dark. It is not unlikely that the "wild type" gene is dominant.

Fauna, you don`t live too far from me. You are welcome to come and see the ferrets that I have here yourself should you wish to do so. There is great variation among them.

Originally Posted by Fauna

But yet i have found many road kills and seen a few live specimens that do...it would be interesting to know how many of these have "ferret" blood in them?

Again, your experience enforces the theory that due to the process of natural selection, animals are not unlikely, as in the case of the mink, to "revert" to wild type in just a few generations. The vast majority of raodkill that I have found throughout Wales are typical "polecat/ferret" type. However, obvious ferrets (i.e.albinos, or animals wearing collars) are encountered fairly regularly whilst actually ferreting as I mentioned in a previous post.

Originally Posted by Fauna

My most recent was a few months back that was found dead near the Pot Noodle factory in Crumlin...

Have found two similar road kill animals at the same spot myself. There are a lot of rabbits nearby!

Originally Posted by Fauna

this one was a very large muscular Hob and untill now i have forgotten that it is still in my compost bin (i wanted the skull).

That`s precisely what I do with skulls that I want cleaned!

Originally Posted by Fauna

Some i had collected by a local Ranger who was doing a study on the local Polecats. I'm sure they where sent off for DNA etc. There was also a litter born at the otherside of my village which i believe he managed to have checked...i will give him a phone this week and see if i get some data from this study.

That would be very interesting thank you. I also have a connection with the Conservation Ecology Research Team (CERTS) Based at Swansea University. Otters, diet and spraint are being studied in some detail currently. There are numerous road kill "polecat/ferrets" waiting to be examined in the freezer there too (I have dropped a few of them off myself) so I will also pursue the same objective as yourself. Let`s see what information we can glean.

All the best,

P