Badger cull, would you avoid Welsh produce

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by Springer5

Excellent post Neil. I agree that there are many in the farming community who don't think any further than "my da' used to say it was them Badgers wot baint no good for cattle ooh arrr"" and that's about as far as they get.

In fairness most of the self-confessed farmers on this blog are more informed, more rational and more objective (with respect to Badgers-only solutions), but I think they are sadly in the minority.

Have you any back up to your assertion that the farming community is less intelligent than any other part of the population ?

You could pop it in with your link to the fencing grants I am eligible for ?

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by Springer5

For you it's Badgers. For me it's people. To paraphrase.....

Deer, Rabbits and Foxes sometimes need to be controlled for a variety of reasons.

People for some reason cannot be touched. To me that is strange.

No matter what anyone says I am happy for some people in my village. But not the amount I currently have.

I am a private citizen and believe that people are a major (but not the only) cause of irritation in this area.

Each to their own DH. But of course we can't all do what we want can we ?

Are you suggesting people be culled ?

You are becoming increasingly bizarre.

Back in the real world, in 4 years time TB costs will take up 70% of DEFRA's budget.

What is your considered solution?

Stop all compensation tomorrow? Just that one thing?

Have a think about it.

You are the clever one !!!

[paulthomas]

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

Back in the real world, in 4 years time TB costs will take up 70% of DEFRA's budget.

The biggest load of rubbish I've heard in a long time.

[Springer5]

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

Are you suggesting people be culled ?

You are becoming increasingly bizarre.

Back in the real world, in 4 years time TB costs will take up 70% of DEFRA's budget.

What is your considered solution?

Stop all compensation tomorrow? Just that one thing?

Have a think about it.

You are the clever one !!!

I have told you my solution. It is the same one as the other clever minds who have looked at the probelm with the best scientific study so far. Clean up farming in the hotspot areas, spend more money an better testing and vaccination rather than looking for easy scapegoats.

How many times DH ??

[Springer5]

Originally Posted by muldonach

assistance is available for fencing required by stewardship schemes. Grant assistance is available for hedge establishment or re-establishment but only as part of a complete package.

Compensation for TB infected animals is set by statute.

Ok DH. There's your 'link'.....or is mac a liar as well now ??

....farmers get money for fencing and it comes from the public. No other small business I know of is given such assistance. If you personally have mssed out on these handouts so far, maybe you are unlucky, but wait a while, they fequently change the schemes. It's someone else this year, maybe you'll be next.

[Springer5]

Originally Posted by paulthomas

The biggest load of rubbish I've heard in a long time.

Do you have a link to this DH ??

LOL

[Springer5]

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

Are you suggesting people be culled ?

You are becoming increasingly bizarre.

Back in the real world, in 4 years time TB costs will take up 70% of DEFRA's budget.

What is your considered solution?

Stop all compensation tomorrow? Just that one thing?

Have a think about it.

You are the clever one !!!

Intersting DEFRA stats DH, any chance of a link ??

lol

If that really does happen who will pay for the fencing ?
Surely not the farmer !!!!

Only kidding.

More seriously, I'm not advocating culling humans (or Badgers). I'm just making the point that if someone were to have that opinion it would not sound so different from your 'Badger' version.

[stripee]

Hi springer5, a while back I found parts of black legs and thought it was a Badger but turned out to be a black goat dumped in a sack when I found the rest. Also a few weeks ago the dead peregrine falcon, still at the lab, suspected poisoning. The list goes on and on... my neighbours are ok though, one not being very interested in farming - his slurry pit leaked for years into the stream, and the other farm run from a distance as extra pasture as the house is empty.
Our part of Wales receives Objective 1 funding from the EU as an area of extreme deprivation (in modern terms). Farmers are not at the top of the deprived list, they have their Union. The deprived ones are those like some people I know, both working, who were living in a rat infested old ambulance with 2 kids for years until last week when they moved into their house. The farmers all have 4x4s and farmhouses.

Badgers equally could have caught bTB from cattle as the incidence is highest in areas with high cattle density.
The Badger cull has to be 100% efficient to achieve the small drop in bTB hoped for, in Ireland it did not achieve this. Snaring will have to be used as a method as there is no other method suitable for a long period. In Ireland other animals were caught in the snares such as pets. If the small drop in the disease is achieved, then it still leaves most of the problem to deal with I would have thought

[stripee]

Maybe my last post should have gone in the other Badger thread, there are 3 threads to chose from now
As for avoiding welsh produce, it is sad for all the people who run businesses if there was a general avoidance. But if some feel that they don't want to factor dead Badgers into their food, then it's a choice that they can make if there is labelling that states place of origin. I wouldn't personally want to visit Irish destinations where there is a cull.

[Garden Witch]

Stripee and Springer you write such good sense. LOL.

[Roaring Mouse]

Originally Posted by eeyore

No I wouldnt

not because i support the cull which i dont

but because the only way to stop the cull , and more importantly the desire to cull is to get farmers to look at the science objectively

and they arent going to do that if they are being squeezed financialy and are close to loosing everything - instead these circs will encourage them to kill anything which has any chance at all of harming their remaining profit margin.

Instead I would advocate a buy british/buy welsh campaign to take financial pressure off farmers and allow them more financial room to absorb the cost of reactors in their herds, then they might be less inclined to cull wildlife as a precaution.

they are also more likely to listen to us (ie the pro Badger group ) if we are perceived as freinds , rather than as enemies who want to bankrupt them.

Getting back to what you say about educating, Eeyore. If we wait for the education process, it is going to be a long time coming. Farmers for the cull will only be convinced in any way when their superiors ie. DEFRA, Veterinaries, NFU, are convinced themselves and then educate the farmers. This is not going to happen in the near future.
Meanwhile the cull will go ahead and who knows how many Badgers are destroyed, dozens, hundreds? Do we wait for that to happen? I would sincerely love an intelligent approach, but the authorities are not using that.

So what do we do, sit back and just wait? Or take a more proactive measure.

In the world outside farming if you manufacturing or services have to reach certain standards. If your customers cannot abide your manufacturing methods, say you employ babies to work on 18 hour shifts until they drop down dead, then replace them from poor single mothers kept breeding for the purpose of. ( I know that's sick, but it was on the cuff of the moment )
You would avoid the product, I hope.

So we have only one way to show an immediate response, avoid those Welsh products that are intricately entwined with the culling of wildlife. They are using extremely poor science to come to their conclusions. We have to act now.

Target your products if you want, don't buy conventional farm products, buy Welsh organic. Just move your custom elsewhere. The organic movement do not support the symptomatic treatment approach of conventional agriculture. (in general that is apart from the odd confused individuals).

Boycotting works and response can be very swift to the threat. We need that.

[Garden Witch]

I shall definitely be joining the growing numbers of people who will be avoiding Welsh products if this senseless killing of our Badgers goes ahead.
After the Badger I wonder what other of our wild creatures will be added to the hit list.

[paulthomas]

Originally Posted by Springer5

Do you have a link to this DH ??

LOL

Sorry but you've got really confused. Are you claiming that I'm DH under a 2nd log-in (which I most definitely am not!!!!!!) or what?

[paulthomas]

Originally Posted by Garden Witch

I shall definitely be joining the growing numbers of people who will be avoiding Welsh products if this senseless killing of our Badgers goes ahead.
After the Badger I wonder what other of our wild creatures will be added to the hit list.

I'll certainly be trying to do the same. One thing we could all do is email Amazon (who have a big distribution warehouse in Wales) and tell them we'll boycott them. If you're going to do a boycott then hit the big guys who's squeals will be heard by the politicians

[Springer5]

Originally Posted by paulthomas

Sorry but you've got really confused. Are you claiming that I'm DH under a 2nd log-in (which I most definitely am not!!!!!!) or what?

Hi Paul

Sorry about the confusion there. No, my post was not meant for you at all. I tried to quote DH but the blog kept quoting only your reponse to him instead by mistake. I kept trying to redo it, but it just kept doing it wrong. My comments were intended as a response to DH's post about the DEFRA budget. I agree with your comments on the matter, and was trying to ask him for a link to back it up.

Regards

[Springer5]

Originally Posted by Garden Witch

I shall definitely be joining the growing numbers of people who will be avoiding Welsh products if this senseless killing of our Badgers goes ahead.
After the Badger I wonder what other of our wild creatures will be added to the hit list.

I think someone has already started a list here....

Badger cull, would you avoid Welsh produce

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by paulthomas

The biggest load of rubbish I've heard in a long time.

You are right.

I have just been out and stood between my most excitable cow and its calf. While holding my dog.

70 % of DEFRA's animal health budget.

Sorry !

Please note how easy it is for me to admit when i am wrong

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by Springer5

I have told you my solution. It is the same one as the other clever minds who have looked at the probelm with the best scientific study so far. Clean up farming in the hotspot areas, spend more money an better testing and vaccination rather than looking for easy scapegoats.

How many times DH ??

I welcome better testing.

How do you clean up farming in the hotspots? Precisely ?

I welcome vaccination.

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by Springer5

Ok DH. There's your 'link'.....or is mac a liar as well now ??

....farmers get money for fencing and it comes from the public. No other small business I know of is given such assistance. If you personally have mssed out on these handouts so far, maybe you are unlucky, but wait a while, they fequently change the schemes. It's someone else this year, maybe you'll be next.

Thats not a link to the details on how I get money for a fence.

[muldonach]

Originally Posted by Springer5

Ok DH. There's your 'link'.....or is mac a liar as well now ??

....farmers get money for fencing and it comes from the public. No other small business I know of is given such assistance. If you personally have mssed out on these handouts so far, maybe you are unlucky, but wait a while, they fequently change the schemes. It's someone else this year, maybe you'll be next.

Which Bills do I get paid by the public...every time you put up a fence on your fields we pay part, every time plant a hedge, we pay part, every time you have to replace livestock that you have lost through diseases such as bTB - back on topic? - or foot and mouth, we pay ALL. Why do you think the govt is looking for a scpaegoat to resolve this bTB problem, because it's costing us all a fortune. If you need to extend your house and you can prove it is for the benefit of the family farm, like accomodation so that your own son can stay on the farm and the farmwould fold without him, there are grants available financed by all of us. And many other things besides.

Your original message is quoted above, it is clear and unequivocal and several times uses the word "every". It is also complete and utter nonsense. I have actually got assistance with some fencing as part of an environmental scheme. For the sake of full understanding the grant is about 50% of the cost of the fence and is paid in annual installments over 5 years. It is awarded on a competitive basis with a fixed budget for the country (Scotland) as a whole, most applicants are not successful.

It would be true to say that some farmers sometimes get some assistance with some fencing - no more than that.

The other statements contained in your message are equally incorrect.

Cheers
mac

[Springer5]

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

Thats not a link to the details on how I get money for a fence.

I never offered one on 'how'. Never claimed to be able to, just on the fact that it happens. How is your business and of no interest to me. Your the farmer.

[Springer5]

Originally Posted by muldonach

Your original message is quoted above, it is clear and unequivocal and several times uses the word "every"......

.....the grant is about 50% of the cost of the fence and is paid in annual installments over 5 years.

The other statements contained in your message are equally incorrect.

Cheers
mac

The actual quote is "every time". So every time fencing needs to be put up there is public money that can be applied for for doing so. As you say, clear and unequivocal.

If the grant you had was 50% , how does that differ from my statement which used the word 'part', or is 50% not 'part' any more ?

Which 'other statements' are 'equally incorrect'. The ones about fencing, or the ones about the real issue you are trying to smokescreen about farmers such as youself and DH being imorral hypocrites with respect to other life around you ?

Why have you both gone so quiet on that front ?

Is it because it's easier for you to try to defend where your fencing money comes from rather than whether you are in effect behaving morally no better than the Badgers you are discussing ?

So many important questions and all you can talk about is the nth degree detail of fencing. I'm not suprised farming is 'struggling' if this is what you are hung up on.

And why are you not sending the same message to DH regarding his uncorroborated claims....

- compensation claims taking 70% of DEFRA's budget ?

I now consider that I have provided sufficient grounds to back up the essence of my earlier claims and do not need to provide yet more.

By contrast your assertiones that my claims of moral hypocrsiy are untrue have not had ANY evidnece to substantiate them . It is well and truly your turn to provide even a glimmer of evidence alongside the relatively large amount that I (and you !) have provided.

Even the anecdotal evidence alone (ignoring the DEFRA link posted by hobble for a moment) is way in excess of ANYTHING you have provided to refute my moral hypocrisy claims. Ican by now only accpt that my assertions must be true due to the lack of any denial.

You both have a lot of catching up to do on the corroborating your opionion stakes. Until either of you can do so. I rest my case.

cheers Springer5