Badger cull, would you avoid Welsh produce

[muldonach]

1. Which Bills do I get paid by the public...every time you put up a fence on your fields we pay part, every time plant a hedge, we pay part, every time you have to replace livestock that you have lost through diseases such as bTB - back on topic? - or foot and mouth, we pay ALL

.

Sorry but this is not correct, there is no grant assistance or subsidy for fencing that I am aware of, although assistance is available for fencing required by stewardship schemes. Grant assistance is available for hedge establishment or re-establishment but only as part of a complete package.

Compensation for TB infected animals is set by statute and is not at 100% of market value, it can be well below market value particularly with pedigree animals. In the case of FMD the animals are valued by a Government appointed valuer. In neither case is there any compensation for contingent loss.

If you need to extend your house and you can prove it is for the benefit of the family farm, like accomodation so that your own son can stay on the farm and the farmwould fold without him, there are grants available financed by all of us. And many other things besides.

Not that I am aware of- if you could post a link to this information I would be interested to read it since we are planning a rebuild on a farmhouse at the moment. Nor is it entirely unknown for other businesses to use grant systems to their own advantage. I don't think Mr De Lorean founded his start up costs entirely from his own pocket and many large businesses have significant assistance in start up costs when establishing new factories in "enterprise zones" and suchlike.

These are operating conditions that most other 'factories' have to comply to by legislation, but for farmers it's something you can do if you want to opt in to a reward system for being oh so responsible. If you build cars for example, they'll fine if your factory pollute the environment, if you farm they'll REWARD you if you don't !!

Pollution by farmers and farming activities is subject to the same legislation and sanctions as any other business as witnessed by several recent prosecutions. Nor am I aware of any reward system for compliance with legislation - again I would be glad to see the information.

All I'm saying is that that is startign to change at last and you'll need to rasie your business game a little to compete in the real world, where other people DON'T pay half the bill if you build something or put up a fence in around your factory.

I don't think that too many farmers would have a problem competing on a level playing field, the problem is getting that field levelled. one of the drivers for the recent increase in beef prices for example is that it was suddenly discovered that animal welfare and traceability in Brazil was not quite at the same standard as EU practice - in fact it largely did not exist! You mentioned compliance with polllution legislation above, a farmer installing a slurry handling system in Ireland can get a 70% grant for the installation cost, there is no grant assistance in the UK for such a system. (for the avoidance of doubt I am not saying that there should be, merely pointing out anothere little bump in the playing surface.)

I will be pleased if it one day helps you to see the bigger picture. Time will tell, but it's also running out for farmers, if they don't learn to stand on their own two feet a bit more.

What goes around comes around, it is perhaps worth remembering that subsidies were introduced to encourage non-economic food production following extreme logistical difficulties in the world wars, particularly WW2. As for time running out for farmers I certainly hope not since we all depend on them for food, although the farmer who supplies us may well have a different nationality.

Now - any chance of sticking to the Badger debate?

Cheers
mac

[Roaring Mouse]

Okay everybody, and anyone new looking in or have not as yet made a comment. Are you or are you not going to avoid Welsh produce?

The point is to make a comment that is heard.

What is the point to a Badger cull when it does not address the problem. How did we get TB under control in the human population, by culling anything? It should have been cattle because they were the ones passing it on. That is the logic being used today.

TB was controlled by better housing, better food, lifting people out of poverty.Antibiotics just mopped up the hard cases.

It all boils down to poor practices, poor husbandry. It is going to have to be addressed. Are we otherwise going to continue on blaming wildlife, slaughtering everything that is perceived as a threat? Because that is the thinking behind a cull, if it looks like a carrier then kill it.

By thinking reactively we miss the true way of tackling it.

I have said before, they will only listen when they feel it in their pockets, just as growers listened by the public buying organic produce. The more we buy the more will be supplied.

Farmers complain about the poor returns on their produce, they can't all diversify. Then continue farming, but organically. Britain is not producing anywhere near enough organic food, we import around 70% of it. But no stubborn woodenheadidness, resistant to change, can't grow anything without fertilizers.

It's the same mindset that keeps calling for a cull!

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by Springer5

I'll agree with whoever made the point that this is way off topic by now, but I'll just finish my part of this by answering your questions (it's the least I can do to explain to you how your business operates).

1. Which Bills do I get paid by the public...every time you put up a fence on your fields we pay part, every time plant a hedge, we pay part, every time you have to replace livestock that you have lost through diseases such as bTB - back on topic? - or foot and mouth, we pay ALL. Why do you think the govt is looking for a scpaegoat to resolve this bTB problem, because it's costing us all a fortune. If you need to extend your house and you can prove it is for the benefit of the family farm, like accomodation so that your own son can stay on the farm and the farmwould fold without him, there are grants available financed by all of us. And many other things besides.

2 . You could be right about small businesses, but not for big business eh ? Banks for example.....yes, they are just a bad as you. Does that make you feel any better ?

3. Factually completely incorrect. I only get paid by the RPA IF I continue to farm as I have in the last 10 years...

in fact this is completely correct...By 'farm' you mean exactly what I described. It's pointless trying to deny it, I spent 2 years taking a diploma in this stuff. Almost 40% of the course was how to get financial aid, and that included Tyr Gofal (probably called something else by now) and AONB payments where Areas of Outstnading Natural Beauty means the farmer is paid not to disturb it if it's part of his land. Money for old rope one lecturer (who was also a farmer himself) described it as.
These are operating conditions that most other 'factories' have to comply to by legislation, but for farmers it's something you can do if you want to opt in to a reward system for being oh so responsible. If you build cars for example, they'll fine if your factory pollute the environment, if you farm they'll REWARD you if you don't !!





To the contrary I'm amazed at how little you seem to know about your own business. I didn't think I'd need to explain everything to you in this much detail. All part of the don't need to think for yourself conditioning I suppose. I don't actually blame you personally, you're just a product of a system which does everything for you so you've never needed to think stuff through for yourself.
All I'm saying is that that is startign to change at last and you'll need to rasie your business game a little to compete in the real world, where other people DON'T pay half the bill if you build something or put up a fence in around your factory.




I will be pleased if it one day helps you to see the bigger picture. Time will tell, but it's also running out for farmers, if they don't learn to stand on their own two feet a bit more.





1. Yes
2. Yes
3. If they can pay their own way under those conditions then I'll be pleased for them, but I'm not a charity and neither is the rest of the public. We had farms before CAP of course, now suddenly they would all fold if CAP and the EU stopped tomorrow ??
4. I have no problem with NP farms, as long as they stand on their own 2 feet.

That's really all I'm trying to say, but you don't seem to have enough personal experience of how the rest of the world works to understand.

I can't explain it any more clearly than I already have. I think I'll give up on you.

Could I ask what your Diploma was in ?

Then I will have some links to the money I get for erecting a fence

Plus for extending my house?

And then a link that shows I don't have to farm to receive subsidy?

Good Luck.

But you won't find me sinking to your level of abuse.

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by Roaring Mouse

It all boils down to poor practices, poor husbandry. It is going to have to be addressed.

You sound like an expert.

I have an open mind, tell me what I should do?

[Roaring Mouse]

Deerhunter, a little sarky eh with the expert bit?

Orthodox farming methods are failing. Animals are becoming sicker, re: TB, Bluetongue etc. The methods are crumbling as was predicted many years ago.

What is the alternative? A return to more natural methods. I bet you groaned.
But I will ignore it, as I have had to over many years.

Start researching, say at the Soil associations website. Or do you not agree with these alternative greeny types?

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by Roaring Mouse

Deerhunter, a little sarky eh with the expert bit?

Orthodox farming methods are failing. Animals are becoming sicker, re: TB, Bluetongue etc. The methods are crumbling as was predicted many years ago.

What is the alternative? A return to more natural methods. I bet you groaned.
But I will ignore it, as I have had to over many years.

Start researching, say at the Soil associations website. Or do you not agree with these alternative greeny types?

Sarcastic?

There are some very rude and presumptive people on this site.

Orthodox farmng methods are not failing. Animals are definitely not sicker, in fact they are healthier than ever.

I however have an organic farm on Exmoor certified by the Soil Association.

I completed a two year conversion period about 7 months ago.

[Roaring Mouse]

Deerhunter, You have? I am surprised, why have you converted? I am certainly not knocking you for doing so, and apologies if you was not being sarky.

I cannot understand how you think animals are more healthy now especially with TB so rampant. First thing in organics, only sick animals get disease, healthy animals are resistant.

Your conversion is very early, so quite possibly you will have incidences of disease. As you gradually build your nutrient content within the soil profile the stock will grow stronger.

There was in fact a very interesting hypothesis I found that had a reasonable explanation as to why the West country and Wales suffer more so from TB.

I would not like to say it is the full answer, but if you are interested I can rake out a link.

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by Roaring Mouse

Deerhunter, You have? I am surprised, why have you converted? I am certainly not knocking you for doing so, and apologies if you was not being sarky.

I cannot understand how you think animals are more healthy now especially with TB so rampant. First thing in organics, only sick animals get disease, healthy animals are resistant.

Your conversion is very early, so quite possibly you will have incidences of disease. As you gradually build your nutrient content within the soil profile the stock will grow stronger.

There was in fact a very interesting hypothesis I found that had a reasonable explanation as to why the West country and Wales suffer more so from TB.

I would not like to say it is the full answer, but if you are interested I can rake out a link.

Why are you surprised ?

I converted to make money. But there was very little conversion needed. In fact only a reduction in Nitrogen fertiliser application.

And yes. I was being sarcastic.

TB, and worse, has been rampant for 100's if not 1000's of years.

If you think only sick animals get disease I am at a loss for words.

It is entirely possible for a healthy animal to become ill.

I don't believe my stock will be any stronger in 2 years time than 20 years ago or 100 years ago.

The only change we have made is stopping nitrates on that were applied on SOMEfields that needed it.

I don't believe that is causing an increasing rate of tb reactors. There is one thing that has changed since 1980 on this farm, and that is the amount of Badgers.

Why not just give me the link ?

[Roaring Mouse]

The Western Telegraph our local paper has an article this week about the Badger cull. One sentence was allowed for the voice against, the rest was virtually a call for killing fields.

This total and absolute bias is all we can expect. Never once have they printed a letter against culling Badgers. One sided opinion is all that is ever given.

Keep letting the assembly know that it could easily change your mind about buying Welsh produce. You could even stop now and let them see the sales drop. Money can speak louder than words

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by Roaring Mouse

The Western Telegraph our local paper has an article this week about the Badger cull. One sentence was allowed for the voice against, the rest was virtually a call for killing fields.

This total and absolute bias is all we can expect. Never once have they printed a letter against culling Badgers. One sided opinion is all that is ever given.

Keep letting the assembly know that it could easily change your mind about buying Welsh produce. You could even stop now and let them see the sales drop. Money can speak louder than words

Not a bad idea.

That would teach them.

Then September-October comes and what appens to all those lambs that have just been born?

They over winter on the hills with nothing to eat ?

All the welsh sheep farmers go out of business?

I don't think many Foxes are going to be tolerated while they are going out of business.

Or Badgers where they are grubbing up the last fields with grass on them !!

Why do you think they are so biased?

Are they al really just stupid just cos they is Farmers ?

Are you Welsh yourself may I ask ?

[Roaring Mouse]

Balanced discussion is needed all round, when one medium is supposed to be the voice of communication, it should really allow all voices to be heard, which in this case it does not.

I am not talking about avoidance of anything but the products that are in direct relationship to bTB. Inorganic milk and milk products plus beef. Organic farming and farmers I tend to find hold a completely different stance on the problem.

Ah the old stereotype question, strikeout the townie as that is not true, now lets see if they are from the motherland. Is it not time to dispense with this?

To answer, no I am not born Welsh, I am adoptive for most of my life now, my wife is of Welsh descent though. I love Wales, Wales is my home and always will be.

[Roaring Mouse]

Okay everyone, we are starting to be noticed. All your emails sent out protesting about the cull and threatening to avoid Welsh produce has been heard in the Welsh assembly. Read what Lorraine Barrett AM says.

Well done all who sent to the tourism centres, they heard and are worried.

It has also come to the notice of the press as well, okay it is a provincial, but that is where it starts, the big nationals will pick it up if we keep it high on the agenda. Article in Daily Post.

So lets keep it going. Send more emails if you have not already done so, give them updates even if you have, tell them you are becoming more and more angry.

Say yea or nay in here. Sightseers are looking in, this is becoming a poll of peoples feelings.

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by Roaring Mouse

Balanced discussion is needed all round, when one medium is supposed to be the voice of communication, it should really allow all voices to be heard, which in this case it does not.

I am not talking about avoidance of anything but the products that are in direct relationship to bTB. Inorganic milk and milk products plus beef. Organic farming and farmers I tend to find hold a completely different stance on the problem.

Ah the old stereotype question, strikeout the townie as that is not true, now lets see if they are from the motherland. Is it not time to dispense with this?

To answer, no I am not born Welsh, I am adoptive for most of my life now, my wife is of Welsh descent though. I love Wales, Wales is my home and always will be.

But it is not balanced for the following reason.

Deer, Rabbits and Foxes sometimes need to be controlled for a variety of reasons.

Badgers for some reason cannot be touched.

To me that is strange.

No matter what anyone says I am happy for some Badgers on my farm. But not the amount I currently have.

I am an organic farmer and believe that Badgers are a major (but not the only) cause of Btb in this area.

I think you will find you will have to boycott sheep farmers as well.

I was just interested if you were Welsh.

It is the same on Exmoor with anti-hunt people. They are normally incomers.

[wildherbalian85]

Yes.

[galanthus]

Living in Wales this would be difficult, however, I would certainly be prepared to give it a go and will email dissent as ever. Also if anyone needs bodies for protesting, (live ones ), if I'm not working I would be prepared to come and bring friends.

[Roaring Mouse]

I think you will find the reason why a lot of incomers tend to be anti hunt is because they have not been steeped in the tradition of the area they have moved into. They question the veracity of hunting.
The country view tends to be more that it is traditional to hunt, but then it was traditional to bear bait and to set dogs on to Badgers. Tradition does not necessarily mean a practice is good. I don't want to get in to a hunt debate here, just to give a small understanding between the two thoughts.

This applies also to the view about Badgers spreading bTB. On site farmers may equate the rise in numbers of Badgers with the rise in bTB in the herd. But it is merely anecdotal evidence. Easy to assume as it seems to relate to the problem. Immediate answer would seem to be reduce the numbers and reduce the problem.

Unfortunately it is too simplistic as it does not take into account the change of practices by farmers around, such as herd density, housing techniques, change to feeding systems, tight inbreeding methods, biochemical body changes to animals due to dietary systems, trace element spectrum of farmland, trace element loss due to soil management; it goes on and on.

Culling animals is an open ended situation, when do you stop? 80% of Badgers don't even show signs of TB, and those that do are they even infectious? That has never been answered.

First thing that should be done is study those farms that do not have a problem, asking why do they not get it? Even though they live alongside Badgers they are free of it. Then we may get some answers.

Calling for an avoidance of Welsh produce is not something I myself take lightly. It affects peoples lives. But then so does wanton unthinking destruction of a specie. It is my world along with everyone else. Should I stand by when I know there is an alternative way?

Those that make the decisions are listening to a narrow defined view for whatever their motives. So to be heard, and they are not listening to reasonable argument, you use the language they respect MONEY.

Will you then avoid Welsh produce if they continue on with a Badger cull? Your answer is wanted!

[Poirot]

Badger cull or not I think that our British frmers get ripped off big time by supermarkets, I would buy welsh meat anyday to prevent them all becoming backrupt I know its appauling to kill Badgers but how else can you avoid it ?

Where is fairtrade when you need it (in africa)

[vole-woman]

Got a reply, but not from the MP I sent my email to:

Thank you for your email of 10 April 2008 sent: to Elin Jones AM, Minister for Rural Affairs about bovine TB and Badgers. Your comments have been noted.

You may be aware that on 8 April 2008 the Minister for Rural Affairs made an announcement on the Bovine TB Eradication Programme. This Programme is being taken forward as part of the One Wales programme for Government commitment to ‘vigorously pursue a programme of TB eradication’. This commitment is being backed by an additional £27 million in funding over the next three years.

The Minister’s announcement included, amongst other things, a one-off test of all cattle herds across Wales in order to identify the extent of the infection and to remove diseased animals as well as a review of existing policies to improve bovine TB surveillance and controls. There will also be a reform of the compensation regime to ensure the compensation arrangements encourage herd owners to comply with legal and best practice requirements.

Previous studies have concluded that Badgers are a reservoir of bovine TB and are involved in the transmission of infection to cattle and vice versa. This conclusion is consistent with the evidence which emerged from the Badger Found Dead Survey that showed levels of TB infection in Badgers were highest in the areas of highest TB incidence in cattle. Full consideration has been given to this Wales-specific evidence and all other scientific arguments outlined in, for example, the final report of the Independent Scientific Group on Cattle TB (ISG) and that of Sir David King. The Minister has now concluded that a targeted cull of Badgers in a high TB incidence area, subject to strict regulation and conditional on meeting a number of requirements, would be the most effective measure to address both sources of infection. This would be taken forward in an Intensive Action Pilot, established in an area which has been defined as a TB hotspot, although no final decision has yet been taken on a location for this pilot.

This is a very complex issue and the Minister is fully aware of the strong views, divergence of scientific and political opinions and the animal health and welfare concerns for both Badgers and cattle. This is why any wildlife measures will be subject to epidemiological assessments, ecological reviews and ethical considerations and meeting the relevant legal requirements before practical implementation is considered. The Bovine TB Eradication Programme Board, which includes the Chief Scientific Advisor and the Technical Advisory Group will now consider how this programme will be taken forward in consultation with the Animal Health and Welfare Strategy Steering Group.

Further information on the Minister’s statement on the bovine TB eradication programme, along with a list of Frequently Asked Questions and Answers can be found at the following link: Welsh Assembly Government | Bovine TB Eradication

Yours sincerely

TB Team

Office of the Chief Veterinary Officer

[Neil Jones]

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

But it is not balanced for the following reason.

Deer, Rabbits and Foxes sometimes need to be controlled for a variety of reasons.

Badgers for some reason cannot be touched.

To me that is strange.

No matter what anyone says I am happy for some Badgers on my farm. But not the amount I currently have.

I am an organic farmer and believe that Badgers are a major (but not the only) cause of Btb in this area.

I think you will find you will have to boycott sheep farmers as well.

I was just interested if you were Welsh.

It is the same on Exmoor with anti-hunt people. They are normally incomers.

Before I start I should say that I am Welsh born and bred. I live in Wales and I can speak the Welsh language.

The simple facts are that the properly collated scientific evidence shows that it is not cost effective to control TB by culling Badgers and that the first step is to properly control it in Cattle. I wonder if you were to survey all the farmers who are calling for a cull would if tested be able to even explain what the word epidemiology means. Like the rest of the population probably few. The largest selling newspaper in Britain is written with the reading age of an eight year old in mind, so it isn't just the farmers.

It is pretty obvious really that if as has been found the tuberculin test is missing infected cattle that other tests find that you use the other tests. This may actually be sufficient to exterminate the disease.

There is a misunderstanding that is common that in order to exterminate a disease you have to stop every case. This is not necessarily true at all. If you look at the equations governing this kind of thing, and incidentally the same kind of mathematics is important in some areas of wildlife conservation. One of the important factors is the ability for the disease to spread and this is largely governed by the number of infected individuals.
One of the real problems is moving cattle around so much. It really increased the level of disease by increasing the effective population size.

To give an example before the 20th century made travel common Measles could never get a proper hold in Iceland. There would be periodic outbreaks when someone brought the disease in but it would then die out until the next time. The population was too small.

If you reduce the effective population by properly detecting infected individuals and by stopping them moving to new areas this may well be sufficient.
The problem is an ignorant lobby that is convinced. " It is them Badgers what spread TB around." without understanding the science behind it.

As to the idea of a boycott well maybe it might work but I'd rather people didn't boycott us because of a few daft people.

It is a powerful lobby. Just remember the daft, barking mad reaction to Foot and Mouth Disease a few years ago. The whole of the countryside shut down totally irrationally because of a false fear of spreading the disease. Good heavens they even canceled a rugby international match! They didn't stop international travel or the postal service which were as equally likely to carry the disease.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Roaring Mouse

If the Badger cull goes ahead in Wales, would you avoid Welsh beef and Dairy products?

Lots of replies wanted even if they are just YES or NO.

Make your views known to the Welsh Assembly as well. Contact Elin Jones AM rural affairs minister in charge of the decision elin.jones@wales.gov.uk

No I wouldnt

not because i support the cull which i dont

but because the only way to stop the cull , and more importantly the desire to cull is to get farmers to look at the science objectively

and they arent going to do that if they are being squeezed financialy and are close to loosing everything - instead these circs will encourage them to kill anything which has any chance at all of harming their remaining profit margin.

Instead I would advocate a buy british/buy welsh campaign to take financial pressure off farmers and allow them more financial room to absorb the cost of reactors in their herds, then they might be less inclined to cull wildlife as a precaution.

they are also more likely to listen to us (ie the pro