Wolf Reintroduction yes or no

[eeyore]

Following on from the awful news about the destruction of the HWP pack I wondered what WABites thought about reintroducing wolves to the wild in the highlands ?

Personally I'm for it, I think it would be a fantastic development for british wildlife and also think that the arguments put forward against it relating to attacks on people and livestock are grossly exagerated.

What does everyone else think ?

Incidentally if you love wolves or want to learn more about them an excellent book is "Wolf Country" by John and Mary Theberge about Wolves in the Algonquin National Park, Canada.

[nicole]

I think the reintroduction is a great idea, after all its worked in other countries successfully so why not in the UK. The only issue is the public's perception of our lost wild animals. You only have to look at the bad press the wild boar has had in recent months as well as the beaver (which was recently turned down for reintroduction by the Scottish parliament). Better education and information is needed to clarify any negative preconceptions the general public and farmers may have on the wolf in order for the reintroduction to have any real momentum.

[midnightfox]

I would love nothing more in the world than for wolves to be reintroduced into Scotland...
but there are a few things that worry me about any reintroduction attempt. First of all there would come a point when there were a large number of wolves...and then they would start culling them . The sheep in scotland are also a problem, as they wander relativley freely over the highlands without much protection or support from the farmers(not always of course, but it is often the case) .
And of course as is often said in America wolves don't respect human boundarys. Wolves often travel many,many miles when dispersing from their packs- so how long would they stay in Scotland?
I of course would love wolves roaming all over Britain, but I'm not sure others would agree

[paulthomas]

I think it's an interesting idea but given the resistence to the re-introduction of beavers into Scotland I can't see it happening for a long while, if ever.

[Jonny]

Sorry, I think its a really bad idea............Ok the highlands our Britains biggest area of wilderness, but look how many people use it, how many sheep and cattle would be lost before the farmers start shooting the wolves to protect their interest. How long would it be before a hiker would get in the wrong place at the wrong time and get mauled. Would the wolves stay in the highlands ?, esp once they start getting shot at (which they will be). Would parents feel safe letting their children out, I think not. How many pets would be lost to them. Britain has changed a lot since the wolves were last here and it is now (maybe unfortunately) not a place where they can live in peace.
Why were the male wolves in that compound not castrated instead of being put down ? Would that not of sorted the problem ?....................Jon

[Alan]

As much as I would love to see wolves back in the wild in the UK, I just don't see it being viable in todays countryside. And believe me, I hate to say that.

I'm afraid this will remain, until major shifts in thinking and attitude are adopted by everyone in positions of power and influence, not to mention the general public.

Britain today is a heavily managed environment, and I'm afraid there simply isn't the room for them to free-range accross the countryside. True wildernes just doesn't exist in this country anymore. The cost of managing the scheme would be immense, and the money spent could easily be used elsewhere. The biggest opposition would obviously be the farming lobby, and only a fully regulated compensation scheme would eleviate their fears as regard to livestock loss. But what about domestic pets! I don't see how you could make provision for these.

In Scotland at the estate of Alladale, just north of Inverness, there is currently a proposed scheme that will fence off something like 20,000 acres, to create an enclosed habitat that some of our extinct but native mammals will be introduced. These include wolf, bear and lynx, as well as their prey species such as red deer, roe dear, wild boar etc. There are enough obstacles in the way of this scheme, let alone letting the animals free-range.

The only way I can see even remotely getting a reintroduction scheme off the ground, would be to first use an offshore island as a experiment. This would at least give the experts and us a better understanding of what it would entail.

The biggest obstacle we have when considering any kind of reintroduction is the creation of suitable habitat. Until the habitat is there, there is no point even thinking about the rest of the food chain. A little bit of habitat here, and a little bit there, is no good for animals such as wolves, which can range upto 25 miles on a typical hunt.

I would want to see them reintroduced - if the right habitat and room were available, but in reality I dont think it will happen.

[Lincs Yellowbelly]

I'd like to see Wolves re-introduced back into this country, there is a big problem with the number of Deer in Scotland at the minute, because they have no natural predator. The have put wolves back into a few countries throughout europe with no real problems, so why not

[Jonny]

Originally Posted by Lincs Yellowbelly

I'd like to see Wolves re-introduced back into this country, there is a big problem with the number of Deer in Scotland at the minute, because they have no natural predator. The have put wolves back into a few countries throughout europe with no real problems, so why not

Errrrrrrrm, reasons as mentioned above...............Jon

[Lincs Yellowbelly]

I was under the impression the thread was asking for opinions on whether wolves should be introduced, my opinion is yes, yours no

Lots of countries have a natural number of wolf, without much in the way of problems with them. Maybe a scheme like Alan says of putting them in a large fenced area first would be the way to go, to see how they get on

[Wolfhill]

Personally I think it is a great idea. I think when they were talking about re-introducing the wolf they were going to be kept in a massive enclosure in an estate in the Highlands. I don't think they were just going to let them go free in the Highlands to go wherever they fancy, so I don't see the problem with it. They used to be here until we wiped them out so I don't see how they wouldn't fit into our environment as they used to live here. Plus you have to imagine they wuld help keep down the deer numbers in the estate.
Fergus

[Jonny]

Originally Posted by Lincs Yellowbelly

I was under the impression the thread was asking for opinions on whether wolves should be introduced, my opinion is yes, yours no

Lots of countries have a natural number of wolf, without much in the way of problems with them. Maybe a scheme like Alan says of putting them in a large fenced area first would be the way to go, to see how they get on

Sorry mate, its just you finished your post saying "so why not"

Trouble with fencing them in is that they will escape in time, or be let out.
At pulbourgh brooks there is a herd of black fallow deer, that escaped from petworth park, which has a huge great stone wall round it.
Plenty of wallabies have escaped from leonardslee.
Wild boar have escaped from enclosures near here.
Even if they don't get out by themselves, there is always the animal rights nutters who could let them out.
You have recently been going on about the otters eating those 50yr old carp, think about the farmer with his prize winning sheep getting eaten..................Jon

[midnightfox]

Originally Posted by Jonny

Sorry, I think its a really bad idea............Ok the highlands our Britains biggest area of wilderness, but look how many people use it, how many sheep and cattle would be lost before the farmers start shooting the wolves to protect their interest. How long would it be before a hiker would get in the wrong place at the wrong time and get mauled. Would the wolves stay in the highlands ?, esp once they start getting shot at (which they will be). Would parents feel safe letting their children out, I think not. How many pets would be lost to them. Britain has changed a lot since the wolves were last here and it is now (maybe unfortunately) not a place where they can live in peace.
Why were the male wolves in that compound not castrated instead of being put down ? Would that not of sorted the problem ?....................Jon

No offense but wolves are usually scared of humans. It is very doubtful a hiker would get 'mauled',wolves do not kill children.(well generally not, there are very few cases of healthy wolves killing people) . You're probably right about the pets though.
I think it is true however that Britain has indeed changed beyond recognition since the wolves lived here last and it would be a near impossible task to reintroduce wolves sucesfully. Also as Alan says environment and space for them is a big issue which ishard to think of a solution for.
I personally think that money spent on a reintroduction program in Scotland would be better spent in parts of Europe were wolves are having a hard time.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Jonny

Sorry, I think its a really bad idea............Ok the highlands our Britains biggest area of wilderness, but look how many people use it, how many sheep and cattle would be lost before the farmers start shooting the wolves to protect their interest. How long would it be before a hiker would get in the wrong place at the wrong time and get mauled. Would the wolves stay in the highlands ?, esp once they start getting shot at (which they will be). Would parents feel safe letting their children out, I think not. How many pets would be lost to them. Britain has changed a lot since the wolves were last here and it is now (maybe unfortunately) not a place where they can live in peace.
Why were the male wolves in that compound not castrated instead of being put down ? Would that not of sorted the problem ?....................Jon

Taking your points in order

There arent that many sheep and cattle in the highlands, thanks to the highland clearances huge tracts are just deer forest or grouse moor, and many estate ghillies are on record as saying they would welcome wolves preying on the deer as it would improve the stock and cut down on the ammount of culling required.

Hikers - In recent times there have been a very small number of wolf attacks on hikers and people generally, and in everycase this has been caused by people habituating the wolves to lose there fear of man, or by hunters killing a wolf but not quite, or just plain hysteria on the part of those "attacked" misinterpreting the wolfs behaviour. There has not been a human fatality as a result of wolf attack for many years.

Straying from the highlands, The experience in Algonquin is that wolves only leave the national park when following deer which are moving out because of harsh weather. Since the deer in the highlands don't display this behaviour there is no particular reason to expect a problem.

Taking Pets: Wolves are not likely to be able to catch cats and dogs should not be roaming free in anycase.

Children: They have wolves in mexico, parts of the USA, Canada, Norway, spain, and northern Italy and asorted parts of the old eastern bloc, there has never been a case of a wolf taking a child in recent times and parents in these countries seem to let their children out pretty freely.

However I would say that i respect your right to your opinion I just don't agree with it

I'm not even going to go there on the HWP issue, I'm still upset about it ( Having sponsored those wolves for many years), there are masses of options they could have taken (removing one of the beta males springs to mind) and its an absolute disgrace that they werent investigated.

[Jonny]

Originally Posted by midnightfox

No offense but wolves are usually scared of humans. It is very doubtful a hiker would get 'mauled',wolves do not kill children.(well generally not, there are very few cases of healthy wolves killing people) . You're probably right about the pets though.
I think it is true however that Britain has indeed changed beyond recognition since the wolves lived here last and it would be a near impossible task to reintroduce wolves sucesfully. Also as Alan says environment and space for them is a big issue which ishard to think of a solution for.
I personally think that money spent on a reintroduction program in Scotland would be better spent in parts of Europe were wolves are having a hard time.

Do agree with you midnightfox and I know that wolves are naturely shy creatures, that is why I said wrong place at the wrong time. Europe is huge and still has room for the wolves, but not the UK...................Jon

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Jonny

Do agree with you midnightfox and I know that wolves are naturely shy creatures, that is why I said wrong place at the wrong time. Europe is huge and still has room for the wolves, but not the UK...................Jon

You are right about the potential for reintroduction abroad, but of course the money earmarked in the UK wont be spent abroad, in all likelyhood unless it is spent on this it will be spent in the UK on something entirely different

But what orignally set me thinking was the ammount of money probably sppent on keeping wolves in captivity in the UK, this might be better spent on reintroduction projects even if it were into semi captivity on a huge scottish estate.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by eeyore

You are right about the potential for reintroduction abroad, but of course the money earmarked in the UK wont be spent abroad, in all likelyhood unless it is spent on this it will be spent in the UK on something entirely different

But what orignally set me thinking was the ammount of money probably sppent on keeping wolves in captivity in the UK, this might be better spent on reintroduction projects even if it were into semi captivity on a huge scottish estate.

Yes but people spend money to see these wolves in captivity, they are businesses don't forget. Money is spent on them so a return can be made. Free roaming wolves don't bring in any money for zoos!

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Alan

Yes but people spend money to see these wolves in captivity, they are businesses don't forget. Money is spent on them so a return can be made. Free roaming wolves don't bring in any money for zoos!

Slaughtered wolves dont bring in any money either arghhhhhhh Sorry still havent got that out of my system

If wolves were released into a big estate they could run landrover safaris to see them, and/or put hides in areas wwhere they might be ( there is a place in finland that does this with bears, see www.wildarena.com for more details)

[Jonny]

Originally Posted by eeyore

You are right about the potential for reintroduction abroad, but of course the money earmarked in the UK wont be spent abroad, in all likelyhood unless it is spent on this it will be spent in the UK on something entirely different

But what orignally set me thinking was the ammount of money probably sppent on keeping wolves in captivity in the UK, this might be better spent on reintroduction projects even if it were into semi captivity on a huge scottish estate.

In semi captivity, what would happen when the alpha male dies. I would not want to see a repeat of what has just happened. Would a Laird of an estate want wolves in the first place. Would it be a safari park like longleat, where you can drive through, because people would want to see them, wouldn't they. I just think there would have to be so much in the way of management of them, it would just cause too many problems. Wolves cannot live in this country like they used to. We as humans meddle with nature far to much, introducing things where they change the balance, ie grey squirrels, japanese knotweed, himerlayan balsam, etc etc. I say lets let nature settle down the way it is and just enjoy what we have, grey squrrels included (but that is another arguement)...................Jon

[eeyore]

Jon we're just going to have to agree to disagree about this. I respect your opinion even if I dont agree with it and I hope this is reciprocal.

[Alan]

With my cynical head on, I would say that unless there are profits to be made out of these kinds of schemes, they wont go ahead!

[Jonny]

Originally Posted by eeyore

Jon we're just going to have to agree to disagree about this. I respect your opinion even if I dont agree with it and I hope this is reciprocal.

No probs there Eeyore.............I love a good discussion, and I certainly respect the wishes of people who want to see wolves roaming our countryside again as I too love the wolves (yes true), its just I can see problems down the line and that is my main concern............Jon

[Alan]

We need to safegaurd the survival of the species we currently have now, and restore viable habitats, before we start thinking about reintroducing more.

[eeyore]

Yes but unless we do something drastic about the quality and numbers of red deer in the highlands the ecosystems we have now will suffer - wolfies could be the answer

and they are cute and fluffy :joking:

[Tinkerbell]

I also understood that the wolves would be on an estate - enclosed - as mentioned by Wolfhill. And I'm sure it would be a money spinner since these animals were once a natural predator in Britain, in fairly recent times.

Tink

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Tinkerbell

I also understood that the wolves would be on an estate - enclosed - as mentioned by Wolfhill. And I'm sure it would be a money spinner since these animals were once a natural predator in Britain, in fairly recent times.

Tink

Yes this is true, it is at Alladale as I mentioned on an earlier post. Though I thought the original subject we were talking about was reintroduction - the release of the wolves so they can roam free, not the setting up of a game park type scheme. Although I suppose this might be a step towards that end.

The last wild wolves in Britain were killed in the mid 1700's.