Wolf Reintroduction yes or no

[alzy74]

Originally Posted by Jim Ford

Phew - I think you should have broken up your huge block of text into more easily assimilated paragraphs!

Jim

Things just seemed to flow, i was unable to cease once i started!. I feel quite passionate about this. Iam of Scottish ancestry and was born in the highlands, its so sad visiting there knowing what WAS there and all the bad things which happened to sustain what? Greedy land owners and farmers? Most of our meat now comes from the continent anyway! Its a disgrace, we spend millions on helping other countries protect their natural habitats and wild, native creatures but we dont really care about what we have done to our own. Because we have lived for so long without them, its like we dont associate them with our heritage, and they are, very much so! Lynx bones are still being found today in caves around Yorkshire and Northumbria, carbon dating puts them at Anglo-Saxon age which means they were around long after the /romans had left. The last British Wolf was shot in the 1700's and Beavers and Elk were killed off in the 1600's. Its tragic, for us and our country. The UK has some of the poorest flora and fauna native to its shores than any other EU member state, yet it has them most barren, disused areas, The Highlands are a natural home to them, it just needs a bit of TLC which thankfuly is happening. Like i previously mentioned, its not a case of if the wolf returns but when.

[Dogs]

ok.... wolves dont need trees, they need meat. Most of the highlands has NO sheep at all... just deer, lots of deer.

[alzy74]

Originally Posted by Dogs

ok.... wolves dont need trees, they need meat. Most of the highlands has NO sheep at all... just deer, lots of deer.

...so lets send in the Wolves!!! Lol Seriously you should look up the Tree's For Life website in the highlands and whats actually going on up there, it has links to government driven websites on the Eurasian Wolf, Bear and Lynx. The powers that be have set up these sites with vast info on the species to better inform the public, gain confidence and hopefuly aim to re-introduce at least one of the species (i would imagine its the Lynx first) within the next 10-20 years. The Lynx requires less land to roam, is very solitary and shy and poses even less risk to man or livestock than the Wolf. Im looking at participating in Tree's For Life next year, i may even sneek up a Wolf from chester zoo! I reckon they are already up there anyway, apparently some landowner who owns a huge estate called Allandale has already flown in elk, has Lynx and will have Wolves by the end of next year... and its not for game purposes either, they are to eventually be released according to certain media types, no smoke without fire.

[darrenm]

Those Boreal forests some people still talk about with misty eyes were on the way out in most of Lowland Britain by the end of the Neolithic and much of the landscape has been managed by the hand of man ever since. Notions of the Wildwood which stretched unbroken from one end of Lowland Britain to the other are mostly Victorian myth. For further details read Rackham.O, Woodlands, 2006.

The Wolf in Lowland Britain was hounded and hunted to extinction by the end of the 13th Century. Changes in agricultural practices and expansion in Human population across the whole country saw the Wolf in the rest of Britain gradually meet the same fate and by the first part of the 17th Century was virtually extinct in Upland Britain and the last reliable record comes from Sutherland and is dated to 1621. Records of Wolves even in Upland Britain after that date are perhaps more myth than reality. By time the various enclosure acts came into being in Lowland Britain the Wolf was only a an animal of Legend and folklore and only retained in place names.

To put back the Wolf onto an island crammed with a Human population of well over 60 Million people, with cars, busy roads and motorways, with barbed wire fencing and allow them to roam free would be a disaster for any reintroduced Wolf. Even in remote areas old beliefs and ideas would see them persecuted and people trying to eek out a living in those areas through agriculture would not be tolerant of a 'new' or reintroduced Apex predator no matter how many re-education programmes you tried.

The Wolf survives in other parts of Europe because people are now more tolerant of it and more people understand its role within a healthy ecosystem but in most areas in Europe in which it survives today it wasnt driven to extinction in the way it was in this country. I do not doubt the Wolf could physically survive in some remote areas of Britain with small Human populations and it would have the food and fullfill a role which it once had but it would be up against hundreds of years of prejudice and that wouldnt be a good start for any reintroduced species.

[darrenm]

With all of the talk of reintroducing species that are now extinct in Britain isnt it time more money was spent on the species that we have now and that have adapted to the environments largely created by man over the last few thousand millenia?

None Native introduced species have and are still causing a vast amount of damage to native species and costing a vast amount of money to try and put right and in some instances this may never be put right i.e the Grey Squirrel. Surely putting a species that became extinct (through the hand of man and habitat loss) back into the mix will only complicate matters even further and may also prove to be damaging to the species we have now.

I personally see all the talk of of reintroduction of Elk, Bear, Wolf, etc has pure fantasy which some seem hell bent on promoting and pushing into reality without thinking of what it will mean for the other species that have adapted since these species became extinct.

If you introduce or reintroduce any species it will have an impact on others and to think otherwise it is pure folly.

[Cowgirl]

Hi Alzy,
Please don't get me wrong, I'm actually trying to understand the situation and being very passionate about something isn't going to persuade me. I'm not sure about some of the statements you have made. I have made a list.

1. As you are of Scottish ancestry you should know about the Highland clearances which were cleared to make way for sheep, so to say the highlands have no sheep is dubious. Ok just realised you didn't say this, apologies Is your ideal aim to clear the Highlands completely of people to return it to a kind of idyllic wildlife neolithic state. I think the people (& there are some) who live there might object a bit, if so, then you would be no better than the Lairds.
   
2. If the Romans exported the strongest bears from the highlands, how did they get past Hadrian's wall?
   
3. If this trees for life area is not to have any tourisim or people allowed, how will it generate income to maintain it. It also seems relatively small area to me.
   
4. If the deer in this park were to leave (because wolves keep hunting them) the wolves would follow, what happens then? Would it be fenced, which I don't think would be fair on the wolves
   
5. You also say that wolves have lived in harmony with man for centuries, but not really in this country have they?

.
I'm finding it very difficult to put my thoughts onto here so apologies if it's all jumbled up.

Just because something has happened in the past doesn't automatically mean it's a good thing to bring it back again. All women used to wear long dresses, doesn't mean to say I think it would be a good idea to bring that practice back. Okay not a brilliant example but you get the gist.

I'm thinking about the wolf in all of this as a reintroduced species & darren has raised some pretty good points as well. Other reintroduced species have been a success due to being able to revitalise the habitat. The Highlands are a bit of a different kettle of fish size wise.

Sorry, but I'd need better arguments to think about.

[Dogs]

Originally Posted by alzy74

...so lets send in the Wolves!!! Lol Seriously you should look up the Tree's For Life website in the highlands and whats actually going on up there, .

Mate, all due respect to you. I know exactly what is going on up in the highlands, I lived and worked with the deer in invernesshire for two years, and im still involved with several aspects of habitat management with the restoration of the native caladonian woodlands.
Im also very familiar with these websites

Eventually poison would be used as is (allegedly) used by dodgy gamekeepers & birds of prey.

It annoys me that many of the people with 'NO' votes, base their theories on rubbish like this, but i suppose if you havent been involved in wildlife management or otherwise learned first hand how people can co-exist relatively peacefully with wolves, like I have been fortunate enough, I suppose these remarks will keep on cropping up.

all the best

Dogs

[Cowgirl]

Originally Posted by Dogs

Mate, all due respect to you. I know exactly what is going on up in the highlands, I lived and worked with the deer in invernesshire for two years, and im still involved with several aspects of habitat management with the restoration of the native caladonian woodlands.
Im also very familiar with these websites



It annoys me that many of the people with 'NO' votes, base their theories on rubbish like this, but i suppose if you havent been involved in wildlife management or otherwise learned first hand how people can co-exist relatively peacefully with wolves, like I have been fortunate enough, I suppose these remarks will keep on cropping up.

all the best

Dogs

Ach and there's the reason why I am not going to get anymore involved!

Even though I would initially vote no , this is only based on my own thoughts as I don't know any different. I can still be open minded and am open to a persuasive argument for. Just someone telling me they're an expert, therefore I should agree with them, doesn't persuade me one iota.

Another interesting thread ruined, goodnight.

[Rob_D]

Originally Posted by darrenm

To put back the Wolf onto an island crammed with a Human population of well over 60 Million people, with cars, busy roads and motorways, with barbed wire fencing and allow them to roam free would be a disaster for any reintroduced Wolf.

On your point about "crammed island" - GB population density is not that much greater than Italy. Scotland's population density is much lower than GB. The Scottish Highlands are much lower still. They are one of the least populated regions in Europe.

There are 500+ wolves in Italy and expanding into France and Switzerland. Central Italy has some less populated areas, but nothing like as sparse as the Highlands. No doubt there are major problems with attacks on livestock and cultural intolerance continues. Their recovery is not without public controversy. Assuming they stay protected, there's no evidence that these Italian wolves face disaster; they're doing well at the moment with suggested 7% annual population growth rate. Italian Wolf: Facts, Discussion Forum, and Encyclopedia Article This recovery is mainly due to protection from persecution, not changes in land-use or demographics.

There are no motorways in the Highlands, and few dual-carriageways. Traffic densities are very low. Not too sure about barbed-wire fence density compared to Italy, but possibly that is much lower also. The Highlands are certainly not too crowded for wolves, far from it.

That said, I agree with the points made about intolerance of wolves in Britain. That could be a huge barrier to successful re-introduction. I've seen the aftermath of a wolf-pack attack on horses in Romania, and I don't underestimate the impact that can have. Negative publicity from the inevitable attacks on livestock and pets might well stop any re-introduction in Scotland almost as soon as it got started. However, that barrier can be overcome. The problems can be managed (plenty of evidence for that). Attitudes can change can't they?

There is a lot more to be done to allow any re-introduction. However, the debates surrounding it allow the opportunity to challenge the assumptions, myths and folklore surrounding wolves that seem to be embedded in our society. Now is a good time to start a change in attitudes.

[Cowgirl]

Now that's more like it. I have been reading your link, v interesting. Thanks Rob.