Grey Squirrel Cull Poll!

[tufftie]

Originally Posted by Ukwildlifeo

2 quick questions, why would the forestry commision be biased against greys but not reds. ANd can i have some references to the papers you refere to please

It would appear that a lot of the time they (and foresters in general) use the red v grey thing as an excuse to cull without getting hounded by a large percent of the public. If you push them they grudgingly admit if reds weren't protected and were in numbers doing damage they would cull them too. Not sure about those papers but they do tend to play the protecting the red bit quite a lot! In general the methods of culling by foresters in general is suspect (will try and find those papers for you).There is quite a lot they don't' take into account - like othr animals debark trees and cause damage. In short it's not in their interests to be otherwise. This is one of the things i was going to go into later in the week / weekend.

Sure - do you mean the papers about parapox? I,m really going have to do some filing this week!!! i am not the most organised of people!!! usual thing if not had them by the weekend give me a nudge! It wont be today or tomorrow because of interview.

[FoxySquirrel]

Originally Posted by tufftie

Okay, I didn’t want to post this before because I still had a little way to go with my research. Grey squirrels are not the only vectors of parapox in squirrels (SPPV).

What we do know: There are about 161,000 red squirrels left in Britain. The origins of SPPV in the UK are unknown. We know that both grey and red squirrels are vectors of the disease and that SPPV is one of the biggest threats to red squirrels as they do not have immunity to it.

There are also thoughts that rodents in general could also be vectors of SPPV as they are known to act as reservoirs in other PPV’s e.g. orf but as yet there has been no research done on this as far as SPPV goes. Also all the parapox virus family are zoonotic (the disease can be passed onto humans), some having a higher potential to transmit than others (Andrew Nitsche et al. and G. Muller et al.). However we don’t know what this potential to transmit is in SPPV, research has just started on this or it may have just been stopped due to funding. If it is high then we could also be vectors of SPPV. We pick it up via scratches and cuts etc as well as by cats. Cats are another known vector of PPV’s in general.

Research into PPV’s in general is still very much in its infancy and new strains are being found on a regular basis. Research in Japan has found two strains of a specific PPV where there was thought to be only one. It’s clearly an area, in general, where lots of research needs to be done. Someone was asking why I look at research not specifically about the situation – it boils down to funding if you want to do research into PPV the chances are you’re more likely to get it if you do it on the effects it might have on immuno-suppressed humans; part of that research will be in finding more about the ways PPV’s are transmitted and the way in which they develop. It’s strange to see what PPV’s are covered by that topic – obviously researchers have to be a little crafty!

So, culling greys squirrels for this reason wouldn’t work as they are not the only vectors. What we need to do is to find out why reds are so susceptible to it; is it an immuno-deficient protein perhaps, we just don’t know. We also need to get underway with developing a vaccine for it as in light of the above research it’s certainly much needed and the only real solution to SPPV in red squirrels. Again, there is no justification for culling grey squirrels because they are vectors of the disease – so are we. There are 161,000 red squirrels in Britain and while this is not a lot there is still time to develop and implement a vaccine without the knee jerk reactions that cause people to over react and panic; more haste and less speed as the saying goes.

i do realize there are other issues but this post is, rather obviously, purely about SPPV

Squirrelpox must account for at least 50% of the reason why people are for culling greys. In light of this there can surely be no more reason to cull them because the other 50% is about lack of suitable habitat and that can be remedied without the need to cull greys. There are far more reds in Britain than i was led to believe from the pro culling people.

[Brains]

Originally Posted by tufftie

Try reading the up to date 2006 and 2007 research. This paper is out of date. Good try sorry The UP TO DATE research from 2006 and 2007 says that culling doesn't work on any species and in the case of rodents definitely not because they overcompensate and will increase spread of disease

Now for the THIRD time - I will try to answer this ********** post without being chucked off and losing everything I?ve written!!!!!! I?ve just discovered that my mouse has 'back' and 'forward' buttons on it

I don't see how you can say that this paper (Gurnell et al, 2004) is out-of-date, especially as it does not mention culling at all but about the degree and mechanisms of competition between red and grey squirrels in Italy and the UK. What it says is that in the presence of greys (in both broadleaved and conifer habitat) female red squirrel fecundity is lower and that recruitment of subadults into the adult population is lower. The former is probably due to lower female body mass during lactation and the latter to increased dispersal of young. Stephen Harris uses the conclusions of this paper, among others, to argue for supplementary feeding of reds as an alternative to culling;

"Ecological replacement of red squirrels by greys is linked to the reduced ability of juvenile reds to be recruited in the population (Wauters & Gurnell, 1999; Wauters et al., 2000) and reduced fecundity, possibly through reduced breeding condition (Gurnell et al., 2004). Supplementary feeding of red squirrels may be one way to counteract this affect and so may help increase red squirrel persistence, particularly in deciduous woodland. This could only occur in the absence in SQPV, but this strategy could be useful if found to promote red squirrel population persistence. " (pg 14). How you feed only red squirrels in a mixed red-grey population is a conundrum!! (as an aside, I have not said that this report is peer reviewed - it is not. I respect SH's work and so take this report/review (not original research!) as if it had been, though with a little bit of salt!)

This Gurnell paper also has an interesting thing to say about the situation on the continent:
"there is no evidence that parapoxvirus occurs in red or grey squirrels in Italy (Luc Wauters and Alessandra Scagliarini, unpublished) where grey squirrels are expanding their range and replacing red squirrels (Lurz et al . 2001; Bertolino & Genovesi 2002)." (pg 27). Greys can out-compete reds in the absence of parapox.

As to the strains of virus - yes it's entirely possible that the precise strain pf parapox circulating in the UK squirrel populations is different now to that originally introduced. It is also entirely possible that the currently circulating strain is endemic to the UK but that it has found a far better vector in grey squirrels than any native mammal species. We'd have to know much more about the genetics of the virus to sort that one out!

So, what's the answer? Certainly better woodland management - increased diversity in conifer woodland would help. However, while helping reds maintain populations that would also make them more suitable for greys. Habitat boundaries are another and obviously vaccination against parapox. Increased spread of this disease by culling is certainly a risk - studies to see how quickly this might happen would be relatively straightforward to do - and culling will only have a short term effect, as demonstrated in the paper put up by UKwildlifeo. A better knowledge of the distribution of parapox in both populations would be hugely advantageous, but I don't think you can get away from at least localised trapping and culling of greys.

[Ukwildlifeo]

Originally Posted by Brains

I don't see how you can say that this paper (Gurnell et al, 2004) is out-of-date, especially as it does not mention culling at all but about the degree and mechanisms of competition between red and grey squirrels in Italy and the UK. What it says is that in the presence of greys (in both broadleaved and conifer habitat) female red squirrel fecundity is lower and that recruitment of subadults into the adult population is lower. The former is probably due to lower female body mass during lactation and the latter to increased dispersal of young. Stephen Harris uses the conclusions of this paper, among others, to argue for supplementary feeding of reds as an alternative to culling;

"Ecological replacement of red squirrels by greys is linked to the reduced ability of juvenile reds to be recruited in the population (Wauters & Gurnell, 1999; Wauters et al., 2000) and reduced fecundity, possibly through reduced breeding condition (Gurnell et al., 2004). Supplementary feeding of red squirrels may be one way to counteract this affect and so may help increase red squirrel persistence, particularly in deciduous woodland. This could only occur in the absence in SQPV, but this strategy could be useful if found to promote red squirrel population persistence. " (pg 14). How you feed only red squirrels in a mixed red-grey population is a conundrum!!

Glad im not the only one that thinks the 2004 paper is not out of date. As for the feeding just the reds I remember seeing a feeder that had a springloaded platform that would support the weight of a red squirrel so it could feed, but would fold down when a grey, which was heavier than a red, tried to feed from the platform. How sucessful this was I dont know...

(as an aside, I have not said that this report is peer reviewed - it is not. I respect SH's work and so take this report/review (not original research!) as if it had been, though with a little bit of salt!)

Explains why I couldn't see where you said it was peer reviewed lol

[mh68]

Cage feeders are used up here to attempt to selectively feed the Reds.The mesh size is apparently too small to allow Greys entry(to do with skull size i think). I have some pics somewhere I`ll dig one out and post one shortly.

Mark H

(edit) pic added....

[Ukwildlifeo]

What happens if the red is a 'pig' and eats so much he cant get out? didnt it happen to a grey and 'squirrel proof' feeder recently. Oh well it will be in no danger of starving lol

[mh68]

Its not infallible, but works the majority of the time. I have seen a larger than normal Red struggling to enter one of the feeders. And of course young Greys would still be able to get in.

Mark H

[tufftie]

Brains - sorry if it wasn't you that said that i was convinced that it was. It is on a thread - maybe foxhunting one ot the other squirrel one - someone was saying that all his work is peer reviewed and they wouldn't have been quoting him otherwise. I'm sure that it has in fact and if i get time I'll look into it for you but it's largely irrelevant as it's one of many papers.

there is no getting away from the fact one of the main reasons for culling was because of parapox and to say otherwise in light of new evidence about parapox is not on - it's moving the goal posts! We do need a vaccine and culling due to parapox will not work both because the act of culling in itself will cause an increase in the spread of it (as discussed in previous posts) and because greys are no the only vectors (see post dated 4th dec at 4.23pm).

I did say it was not the only reason that is given for culling greys - the other one is to do with habitat and I haven't got time to answer that one now but there are ways to solve that other than culling.

The whole point I was trying to give with that post is that we can no longer use SPPV (squirrel parapox) as a reason to cull grey squirrels. there is no valid reason to cull grey squirrels.

[tufftie]

Originally Posted by Ukwildlifeo

What happens if the red is a 'pig' and eats so much he cant get out? didnt it happen to a grey and 'squirrel proof' feeder recently. Oh well it will be in no danger of starving lol

It was on a wildlife rescue programme wasn't it? It chewed the hair off its tail because it was so stressed (feel like a traitor here - but it looked like a treerat!). I think it happens quite a bit and can be stressful for both species.

Like the photo Mark!

[tufftie]

With regards to out of date papers; the original post, with the 2004 paper, was referring to both the effects of parapox and habitat problems in relation to culling.
What i meant by out of date is that more recent research has shown that when animals are culled they either compensate or over compensate (and grey squirrel being rodents over compensate) there for it doesn't matter why they are being culled - it simply wont work. Therefore the suggestion that they should be culled from evidence in that paper is out of date. I have never suggested that anything in the papers other than that is out of date. for the same reasons it wont work in Europe either - twice as much reason to put other solutions into fast gear.
In previous posts i have stated that the habitat problem is one of two big issues that need addressing - however due to the fact that greys overcompensate from the effects of culling it is not a viable option.
As for if the SH paper has been peer reviewed - i've emailed him to ask, not sure if or when I'll get a reply, but it will resolve that one once and for all. I've heard some real horror stories about peer reviews and while on the surface they do seem a good idea it is open to real back stabbing, especially in areas where the number of peers are limited and although the author of the paper is secret it's often pretty obvious who it is. Please don't equate this to any people or papers I've quoted here it's just something I've noticed and not particularly with squirrels.

There are a lot of scientists who are too proud to admit that they might be wrong or feel annoyed that they weren't the ones to make the new findings (in all fields not just mammals etc) that novel ideas don't get a chance and things suffer accordingly - in this case red squirrels. Please don't think this a dig at anyone in particular it is not.