Grey Squirrel Cull Poll!

[Dogghound]

Originally Posted by tufftie

Grey squirrels should certainly not be culled in areas where there are no reds and be released when they've been rescued; not to do so is unnecessary. Anybody that condones the culling of greys should take the responsibility and widely broadcast the fact that any culling of greys should be done by professionals only and not in non red areas - not doing this is promoting this cruelty. So yes Foxy squirrels comment does relate directly to grey culling.

Grey's need culling in non-red area's to re-establish red's back around the uk as the main species. Its no good just protecting red's they need to be re-established as the main uk squirrel.

Originally Posted by tufftie

The reds in this country are all from reintroduced stock. They are the same species as other European countries and so if they did die out in areas of Britain they could be reintroduced - it would be no different to the current situation. They wouldn't die out completely in the UK because of island habitats like Brownsea. This is facing facts not burying heads in sand.

They are not from reintroduced stock they are a native species that never when extinct here although they will do. Why waste all the time and effort reintroducing them when you can protect and expand the current population.

Originally Posted by tufftie

Greys don't push reds out - when there are no reds in an area (for whatever reason) the greys move in to fill the gap; this is normal practice in wildlife.

Grey's out compete red's and cause there population's to decline. They dont just fill in gaps they make gaps.

[Dogghound]

Originally Posted by tufftie

Can you scientifically back up these claims? - I'm only asking because i know you can't!

Actually i can scientifically back up that greys have a negative affect on reds yes.

Here

http://www.jncc.gov.uk/pdf/pub05_ukm...Text_final.pdf

A large document but if you got the the relative red squirrel section you will see. Also so interesting references on the paper too.

[tufftie]

''they are not from reintroduced stock they are a native species that never when extinct here although they will do. Why waste all the time and effort reintroducing them when you can protect and expand the current population.''

Sorry but they have been reintroduced and scientifically they are the same species as in Europe. There is no proof that they were native - that is also scientific fact.

It's also weell establishe that greys do not out compete reds. Reds will never be widespread over the Uk as they are too habitat specific and there is not enough habitat for them.

It's a waste of tme and money culling greys in non red areas. it has been scientifically proven not to work.

the jncc report you mention is 2 years out f date - there is another more recent one from Bristol Uni - that supports reds but still says culling wont work. for link go to other squirrel thread.

[C C]

Originally Posted by tufftie

The reds in this country are all from reintroduced stock. They are the same species as other European countries and so if they did die out in areas of Britain they could be reintroduced - it would be no different to the current situation. They wouldn't die out completely in the UK because of island habitats like Brownsea. This is facing facts not burying heads in sand.

Keep in mind the red squirrel is only threated in Britain and is doing very well elsewhere. It would be interesting to see a model showing how the reds would be doing over here if the greys were taken out of the situation. With their historical susceptibility to disease and decimation of numbers due to it - before greys were over here - I suspect the scenario would be little different than it is now.

I'm sure i read somewhere, Grey Squirrels are effecting Reds in Italy?

[FoxySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Dogghound

Grey's need culling in non-red area's to re-establish red's back around the uk as the main species. Its no good just protecting red's they need to be re-established as the main uk squirrel.




They are not from reintroduced stock they are a native species that never when extinct here although they will do. Why waste all the time and effort reintroducing them when you can protect and expand the current population.



Grey's out compete red's and cause there population's to decline. They dont just fill in gaps they make gaps.

Originally Posted by mh68

Firstly, nowhere did I mention the authorities recognising Reds as native because they were cute and fluffy - i suggest you read my post properly.
Secondly, proper effective Grey squirrel culling involves humane methods of despatch. I sympathise with your point regarding greys injured and left to die a slow death due to idiots taking potshots at them,but that doesnt relate to organised culling of Greys.
Regarding your mention of culling Reds. If it were proven conclusively that a cull was needed in the future if numbers ever got back to the stage of being detrimental then yes, I would accept that, but only if it was deemed absolutely necessary and there were no effective alternatives. I may not like it - I dont like seeing animals killed either - but sometimes it is necessary.
Your cop-out regarding ignoring the problem of the greys as we can always reintroduce reds in the future is totally bemusing and shows a total lack of concern to the threats the Red Squirrels are facing.
On a local level, 2 individual populations of Reds are currently under threat from the invasion of Greys. Then there is the recent incident of Greys being irresponsibly introduced into a reserve with another currently healthy Red population.Elsewhere in the UK Red populations have either been lost, or are heading that way from ingress of Grey Squirrels and the inherent problems.
Burying your head in the sand with cop outs like yours mentioned above doesnt help the situation. Should we just let all threatened species just dwindle as according to you we can always reintroduce them at a later date????
Your mention of Greys in the woods behind your house suggests that no Reds are present near you? So your attitude comes as no surprise really, after all....its someone elses problem and doesnt affect you does it???!!

Mark H

If you cared to read your own posts you'd see that i was redirecting your similar assumptions about me (as regards the greys)to the "authorities".It is very obvious so me that from the tirade of anti-grey propaganda being served up by the media that they are very much pulling on the heart strings of the public by using the "cute and fluffy" factor.There doesn't seem to be the same outcry about our native ladybird being displaced by an "invader" with scant media coverage by comparison.

No it isn't proven conclusively that culls are working in steming the movement of grey squirrels,quite the opposite in fact.If culling the grey squirrel was at all effective we wouldn't be talking now.

I see the culling of grey squirrels as a short-sighted "cop-out" in that it ignores the only realistic means of conserving the red squirrel such as establishing further red squirrel populations on isolated islands,developing a parapox vaccine or creating habitat where the reds would have a competitive
edge over the greys.The fact that i'm advocating these alternatives demonstrates that your "lack of caring" accusation is wrong.

The red squirrel will never disappear from Britain with there being an abundance of the continental subspecies.But it would be a much better utilization of resources to hold back on reintroducing any more reds until the vaccine is developed,rather than carrying on with his senseless killing.Only in the last week i see that scientists can create a genetically modified rodent that is stronger and lives longer,so anything is possible.

[FoxySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Dogghound

Actually i can scientifically back up that greys have a negative affect on reds yes.

Here

http://www.jncc.gov.uk/pdf/pub05_ukm...Text_final.pdf

A large document but if you got the the relative red squirrel section you will see. Also so interesting references on the paper too.

You didn't read Tuffties post.

She asked for scientific evidence to back up your claim that "Only extremely large population of red's can cause damage to tree's they don't have big affects on tree population's or bird population's".

To quote the University Of Bristol papers ,"Is culling of grey squirrels a viable tactic to conserve red squirrel populations?":-

"Red squirrels are also known to cause significant damage to trees(Tittensor,1970) to the extent that they were considered a major pest prior to te introduction of grey squirrels(Ritchie,1920)."

Furthermore in Monica Shortens "Squirrels":-

"In the New Forest control measure was started against the red squirrel in 1880,because young trees were being damaged.Only 167 were shot in the first year,but by 1889 the annual kill in the same area was 2281.In Scotland there was a period of great abundance between 1890 and 1910,and in 1903 the Highland Squirrel Club was started to control numbers on some thirty to forty of the large Scottish estates.In the first thirty years this club accounted for well over 82,000 squirrels"

Regarding bird predation (quoting Bristol University) "a recent survey indicated that of 8 woodland bird species showing declines,only two rarer species may have shown a decline related to grey squirrel abundance.However this evidence cannot be directly linked to predation " and "the focus on grey squirrels ignores the fact that the red squirrels themselves are important predators".

[mh68]

Firstly, my comment which you have taken offence to was in reply to the glib remark about being able to simply reintroduce Reds should the worst happen, which did give the impression that you werent overly concerned as to the Red squirrels current plight, as long as Greys werent culled. If that was not the case then I apologise.
Nowhere on this thread have I suggested that culling to totally eradicate Greys is, or will be, effective. It would be an impossible task to totally eliminate Greys from the Uk in this way.
What I have maintained, is that at this point in time, localised culling of Greys as they are seen to invade Red populations is the most effective strategy to prolong the success of the Reds, compared to what else is currently available.
I`ve just been out this morning to check out a local Red Squirrel population adjacent to a Golf Course near me. Not a sign of a Red, and speaking to the groundsman no Reds have been seen for a while now,which points to the population either being on the brink of demise, or already gone. Greys have been seen in the area, and not far away in another Red Squirrel spot.At the beginning of this year, Reds were seen daily at the golf course site.
In the case of the Golf Course site, Greys aren`t culled. As to the other site I`m unaware of their policies regarding invading Greys.
The circumstances are very similar to the reserve i`ve been referring to where the Greys were recently illegally released,and where Greys are culled as soon as theyre sighted in the reserve.

Both sites are surrounded by areas inhabited by Grey Squirrels.

Both sites have had invading Greys and continue to do so.


One site - the example where no culling takes place, has either lost is Red population, or is on the brink of doing so by all accounts.
The other site with the culling policy, still has a thriving Red population despite similar circumstances to the former example.

Localised culling has had a positive effect and has prolonged the success of the resident Red squirrels.Had the culling not taken place, theres a very good chance the reserve would have gone the same way as the golf course site i visited today,and it would have happened several years ago.......

The "unculled site" (golf course) only had its first Grey sighting last year.Yet now the Reds are either gone, or are on the verge of disappearing.

The "culled site" has had Grey sightings for several years,yet the Reds still continue to thrive, which further strengthens the suggestion that the localised culling taking place, is having a positive effect.

At the present time, in my opinion, localised culling is the only effective way of protecting existing Red Squirrel populations while more effective alternatives are developed. I`m all for solutions that dont involve the culling of Greys,as are those who undertake the removal of the Greys locally.But if such action wasnt taken now, by the time an effective solution became apparent it may be too late.

Mark H

[Paul mabbott]

Perhaps there's an alternative?
Sterilisation plan for grey squirrels - Telegraph

[mh68]

I`ve heard about that Paul, and agree it does look like an effective long term solution.BUT....until such a strategy started having an effect on the Grey population we still have the problems of invading Greys in the meantime,and SQPV.
If a successful vaccine against SQPV could be developed then that would be a positive step and a more effective solution that would have an immediate effect and reduce the risk of Reds succumbing to the virus.It wouldnt stop Reds being outcompeted by the Greys, but supplementary feeding could help for that problem.

Mark H

[ColonelBlimp]

I see the culling of grey squirrels as a short-sighted "cop-out" in that it ignores the only realistic means of conserving the red squirrel such as establishing further red squirrel populations on isolated islands,developing a parapox vaccine or creating habitat where the reds would have a competitive
edge over the greys.

Introducing red squirrels on isolated islands: not exactly going to lead to longer-term retaking of ground plus I would be very wary of introducing a species elsewhere to solve the problem of an intorduced species.
Developing a parapox vaccine: method of delivery would be a pain in the proverbial plus those reds inoculated would only have one less problem and not the outcompetition problem etc.
Creating habitat where the reds would have a competitive edge over the greys: don't know how this could be achieved except through expansion of pine etc.

Many of these proffered solutions raise more problems than they solve, and as I see it shooting of greys by professionals outside the breeding season is a direct way of limiting their population without harming reds or creating more problems.

Conserving the red squirrel population should not be the desired result, as that will happen anyway (e.g. Brownsea until some loony brings their pet along), but the expansion of the population to pre grey squirrel levels at the expense of the greys.