Cladonia Query

[Lancashire Lad]

Found this little cluster of Cladonia today, but can't seem to reconcile it with any of the descriptions in Dobson, or with photo's I've seen on the web.

According to what I've read, only C.stricta, and C.cervicornis ssp. verticillata have podetia which grow from within other podetia, but my specimen doesn't seem to fit with description for either.

However, some of the podetia in my example were showing this trait, and it can clearly be seen occuring on the left-most podetia at top of image.



Any thoughts or pointers towards ID will be much appreciated.

Regards,
Mike.

[Chris Yeates]

Originally Posted by Lancashire Lad

Found this little cluster of Cladonia today, but can't seem to reconcile it with any of the descriptions in Dobson, or with photo's I've seen on the web.

According to what I've read, only C.stricta, and C.cervicornis ssp. verticillata have podetia which grow from within other podetia, but my specimen doesn't seem to fit with description for either.

However, some of the podetia in my example were showing this trait, and it can clearly be seen occuring on the left-most podetia at top of image.



Any thoughts or pointers towards ID will be much appreciated.

Regards,
Mike.

I think verticillata is a good shout, but I am not much more than an occasional lichenologist

I have hung around lichenologists enough to know that Cladonia is a very fluid genus and that there is no substitute for years of experience and that even specialists in the genus accept that not everything encountered can be confidently named; so don't be too despondent

cheers

Chris

[Lancashire Lad]

Thanks Chris.

I suppose, of the two candidates, C.cervicornis ssp. verticillata would seem to be more likely, as according to what I've read, it has wide(ish) cups, and secondary podetia always grow from the centre of others. Whereas C.stricta has narrow cups with secondary podetia growing only occasionally from the centre of others.

However, I accept that with my being only an interested and non academic amateur, there are many and numerous occasions where my ID quests will remain unfulfilled. I shall maintain an air of non-despondency throughout.

Regards,
Mike.

[JennyS]

Hi Mike,
I've got wary enough of IDing Cladonia accurately in the field, let alone from photo's but reading AlanS's description of C. cervicornis ssp. verticillata below:
Cladonia cervicornis (images of British lichens)
he describes the podetia (stalk-like bits) as 'lacking soredia' whereas in your photo they look finely-sorediate ......
There also appear to be red pycnidia present which would exclude C. cervicornis ssp. verticillata as that has brown apothecia and pycnidia.

C. stricta is only recorded "near snow patch in the Cairngorms" - 'Cladonia: a field guide' by Joint Nature Conservation Committee.
('Lichens of GB & Ireland refer to it as C. trassii)

If you could test it for K and C results that could narrow things down a bit, but you're going to need AlanS for this one!

[Lancashire Lad]

Thanks Jenny,

I thought when I saw it that I was in with a chance of the ID on this one, knowing that only a few Cladonia are supposed to have the podetia in podetia trait, but I might have known it wouldn't be that simple

Yes, I have the Joint Nature Conservation Committee (NG Hodgetts) field guide, and had seen that comment, but it hadn't registered in my tiny mind that it meant that C.stricta had only been found at that one location. - (It doesn't mention the species as being rare, whereas with others it mentions rare or very rare ).

Oh well, another to go down as Cladonia sp. - unless AlanS is able to offer a definitive verdict. (Although I fully appreciate that ID'ing from photos is probably the worst way to go about things - much like doing the same with fungi).

Regards,
Mike.

[JennyS]

Oh well, another to go down as Cladonia sp

I've got a lot like that too!

[AlanS]

Hi Mike,

An interesting problem!

Stand by for an essay ...

Firstly, there is the question of whether podetia are really growing from within podetia, and here I am going to disagree. Podetia arising from the centre of existing cups is indeed a feature of the Cladonia cervicornis complex and C. trassii ("stricta") and I don't know of this happening in any other species. However, several species can have podetia arising from the margins of existing cups. What Mike has here is a species in which proliferation is so extensive that some of the new cups may seem to be arising within cups, but are really associated with the cup margins.

This is particularly a feature of some members of the Cladonia chlorophaea complex, so much so that I immediately recognised the photograph just from the thumbnail.

As Jenny has pointed out, Mike's Cladonia is abundantly sorediate, which completely rules out the C. cervicornis complex and the very rare C. trassii (an arctic species that scarcely reaches Britain). The soredia are too coarse for C. subulata, and the form of the proliferations is somewhat different from the rare, proliferous states of that species.

To me, ignoring the red blobs, this is good, typical C. chlorophaea agg. - probably not C. chlorophaea itself, but more likely C. grayi (which commonly proliferates) or C. merochlorophaea, but chemical tests and knowledge of the colour of the flesh in UV light are required for certain ID. In Dobson, this comes under C. chlorophaea. (Note that the description of C. grayi in Dobson better fits true C. chlorophaea, according to my own, limited experience.)


But about these red blobs ...

They are too large to be pycnidia and while they could be apothecia, their appearance and positioning do not look right.

If they are apothecia, then my identification is wrong, as C. chlorophaea has brown apothecia, but Mike's photograph does not match any of the red-fruited species in my view.

Consequently, I suggest two other possibilities:


1. Mike has decided to test us self-appointed, so-called "experts" with some minute little balls of red plasticine. With manipulation with, e.g., sharpened matchsticks, and very precise application of tiny spots of glue, he has cooked up this little puzzle.

Nice try Mike, but we are not taken in.


2. Should Mike choose to deny this, and IF we then believe him, then we have to consider a parasitic fungus, and a surprising number can occur on Cladonia.

I suggest that what Mike actually has here is the fungus Syzygospora bachmannii, a parasite on a number of Cladonia species, including C. chlorophaea. I have not yet found it for myself (despite looking), but it is widespread in Europe and there are a number of British records. I think Mike's photograph is compatible with the b&w photograph shown in the original publication of this species (Paul Diederich - 'The Lichenicolous Heterobasidiomycetes'). It varies in colour and can be red.

There is also a Tremella cladoniae which is macroscopically rather similar, but this is much rarer, not yet known in Britain so far as I am aware, and unlikely to parasitise C. chlorophaea.

I am not going to be definite without microscopic examination, and for a species I have never seen, but S. bachmannii seems a good possibility to me.


Alan

[Lancashire Lad]

Hi Alan,

Thanks for the very informative reply, I really do appreceate it.

Unfortunately, I didn't have the aforethought to try to, as you put it, "test the experts", and I'm sure I wouldn't have known what I was trying to achieve If I had thought of such a ploy. So I throw myself upon your mercy and submit my plea of innocence to the charge.

No, the image is of the sample exactly as found, (although to be perfectly honest, on my monitor the "red" blobs do actually appear to have a definite brownish tinge about them. They are certainly not as red as I've usually seen in the C.diversa types etc.).

Regards,
Mike.

[AlanS]

Originally Posted by Lancashire Lad

No, the image is of the sample exactly as found, (although to be perfectly honest, on my monitor the "red" blobs do actually appear to have a definite brownish tinge about them. They are certainly not as red as I've usually seen in the C.diversa types etc.).
Mike.

Hi Mike, yes, that would fit S. bachmannii - red-brown would appear to be the most usual colour.

Alan

[Lancashire Lad]

Thanks once again Alan.

I may post the photo in the Gallery, (under C. chlorophaea agg.), with a link to the very interesting additional information that you have provided in this thread.

Regards,
Mik.