Three more Cladonia

[JennyS]

And three more Cladonia I'd appreciate help with .....all from acidic upland heath

Q1


Q2 Cladonia subcervicormis?


Q3

[AlanS]

Sigh, just as I am off to bed, another batch of these things.

1.
How upland??? The only idea I have for this is a bit ridiculous - best I cogitate rather than throw names about. It could be very interesting though.
I am waiting to see a key paper on this group, so I may come back to this at a later date. Could be a very nice photograph of something seemingly pretty rare.
(Or it is something common and my brain is malfunctioning due to a surfeit of Cladonia.)

2. Yes.

3. Looks like C. diversa, but not your best ever photograph, if you'll forgive my saying so.

Alan

[JennyS]

Hi again,
Thanks for 2 and sorry about the awful quality of 3 - it was in the corner of a photo of something else.

1. It was your answer to Mike's photo that reminded me I'd meant to post this one for checking after reading Dobsons description of C. borealis with 'plate-like squamules'. Height above sea-level is approx 600 foot. I'll see if I can re-find it tomorrow to test.

Two more photos of it below:

[AlanS]

Originally Posted by JennyS

1. It was your answer to Mike's photo that reminded me I'd meant to post this one for checking after reading Dobsons description of C. borealis with 'plate-like squamules'. Height above sea-level is approx 600 foot. I'll see if I can re-find it tomorrow to test.

I hadn't realised that C. borealis was mentioned in Dobson. To be honest, I think that what he says is misleading (I have Stenroos's original description in front of me as I type this). The surface of C. borealis is indeed described as "plated", but the plates are more or less part of the surface, attached centrally, not sticking out from it. It is more like armour-plating.

Now the member of the C. coccifera group that is grey and has plate-like squamules, including inside the cup, is C. coccifera in the strict sense — hence my interest in your photograph — but how likely is a continental-montane species, replaced in oceanic western Europe by C. diversa, to be in SW Ireland??
Maybe your mystery is a form of C. diversa, or even yet another morph of the ever variable C. polydactyla? Chemical tests (K) would be interesting.

Alan

[JennyS]

Oh dear I meant to go to bed hours ago.....thanks for the clarification on Dobson's description of C. diversa.

but how likely is a continental-montane species, replaced in oceanic western Europe by C. diversa, to be in SW Ireland??

Is there anything comparable among lichen to the Lusitanian Flora or is C. coccifera from a different part of continental Europe entirely?
Below is a link to LichenIreland's distribution map for C. coccifera - the only recent records are in the north, though there are older records throughout Ireland (.agg?)
C. coccifera

I had named the one below as Cladonia coccifera agg. - is it C. diversa and have I lost the plot completely with these? (Very possible)



I think my brain switched off hours ago, computer is switching off too....

[AlanS]

Originally Posted by JennyS

Is there anything comparable among lichen to the Lusitanian Flora or is C. coccifera from a different part of continental Europe entirely?
Below is a link to LichenIreland's distribution map for C. coccifera - the only recent records are in the north, though there are older records throughout Ireland (.agg?)

Now I don't know if my information is up to date, but true C. coccifera is or was confirmed only from the Scottish Highlands. Maybe there are additional records now, but it is certainly rare. (The National Biodiversity Network map for C. coccifera sens. strict. suggests that it is still known only from NE Scotland - Cairngorms and apparently an acid dune system, but unfortunately British Lichen Society records are not included.) Nevertheless, we can be confident that the Scottish picture is reasonably accurate and it is most unlikely that it would be more common in any other part of the British Isles.

In Europe it is mainly in Scandinavia and in the Alps, seemingly less common in coastal west Europe, though this might be a result of the guy who worked on them having done most of his work in Finland. It is certainly not 'Lusitanian'.

C. diversa seems to be pretty much confined to coastal west Europe and its relative abundance in Britain and Ireland fits in with that.

C. borealis seems to be the most widespread in Europe, and while there are few British records, it may be much overlooked in upland areas, hence my interest in Mike's photographs that might be it.

All three of these, plus a couple of other rare species (C. pleurota, C. metacorallifera) were until relatively recently recorded as "C. coccifera" and undoubtedly people are still doing so. Consequently, I would assume that ALL the records on the Irish map, even those that are recent, are C. diversa unless they have been expertly verified. (Or actually, since there is so much confusion of the red fruited species and identification is all too often based on a general resemblance to an image that has been "Googled" and is probably itself wrongly named, at least some may be C. floerkeana or the like.)

I think your latest photo is C. diversa.

Alan

[AlanS]

Originally Posted by JennyS

Below is a link to LichenIreland's distribution map for C. coccifera - the only recent records are in the north, though there are older records throughout Ireland (.agg?)
C. coccifera

Hmm, I intended to take a closer look at the LichenIreland page on C. coccifera. Now I have done so: the right-hand photograph appears to be C. diversa.
At least the centre, and probably the left-hand photograph too, are, I am reasonably confident, C. polydactyla!

Yes, I cannot say I trust the map!

Alan

[JennyS]

Yes, I cannot say I trust the map!

Or the photo's ......

I went back and tested one from the clump in the photo: K+ yellow turning to red, though I then realised the one tested was much less squamulose than the one next to it....



Brought another bit home and tested for KC reaction but I don't know whether I over C-ed it as there didn't seem to be much reaction at all, possibly slight yellowish but nothing I'd want to rely on.

Sorry, but I don't know if this is going to be much help?

[AlanS]

Originally Posted by JennyS

Or the photo's ......

I went back and tested one from the clump in the photo: K+ yellow turning to red, though I then realised the one tested was much less squamulose than the one next to it....



Brought another bit home and tested for KC reaction but I don't know whether I over C-ed it as there didn't seem to be much reaction at all, possibly slight yellowish but nothing I'd want to rely on.

Sorry, but I don't know if this is going to be much help?

Oh dear. Sorry Jenny, but I just know you are going to laugh really ....

If you test the apothecia (and presumably also the pycnidia) of ANY of the red-fruited species, you will get a red to purple reaction with KOH. You need to keep well away from the rim of the cup.

All part of the endless fun of lichenology ...

Alan

[JennyS]

Ooops!
Seriously though that's very useful to know or I'd have made the same mistake over and over again ..... I should have read Dobson more carefully, tomorrow I'll go test a squamule base ..... knew I should have stuck to gardening