Dissertation ideas? Mothing.

[Dan Salter]

Hi chaps and lasses...

Wont bore you with details but my planned dissertation to do over this summer has fallen to pieces and i have scrapped it.

So im up against time before the next academic year to get a research/data collecting project done and have thought of doing something invloving moths/moth trapping.

Do any of you have any dissertation/hypothesis type ideas you can think of ...maybe involving a single species or group...or a diversity comparison or habitat comparisons etc...that are do-able and not too big a project (this is degree level not masters or phd).

Any thoughts or ideas however crazy are helpful as i need to get the idea part of my brain re working fast and get onto it...i have from now until late sept/ possibly into october....

hope you can help

Thanks

Dan

[Mr Mag00]

want to learn how to dissect moths?

[Dan Salter]

Not something i had thought about no?...i know studying the genetalia is needed to sex or identify some species???...so maybe dissection is needed or were you pulling my leg?

And if i do need to know then yes i do want to learn! ha ha

[Mr Mag00]

well it might be worth getting in contact with a local group and see if there are any specimens that need confirming id, there is a webpage clicky about moth disssection. i have done some and it is fascinating.

i dont know how this would be put in a proposal/hypothesis, just thinking on my feet...

[JonSadler]

What about looking at habitat structure and moth diversity? This could be gardens or allotments. Check out Kevin Gaston's BUGS project for some ideas.

To do this though you'd need access and a lot of time (perhaps a few moth traps not just one).

Regards
Jon

[naturegirl]

Don't know if it's of any help but........
I wrote a shortish course about the Heath Fritillary butterfly? It is an endangered species and only known from 3 sites here.

It was fascinating to research the project and I learned a lot!

The food plants it feeds on are quite specific and interesting too.

Hope this helps.

Naturegirl

[CapAndBracket]

I did mine on which light bulbs attracted the most moths to a trap (or anywhere else), normal household bulb vs energy saver.
Ran two traps (home made) 10mtrs apart so timing difference wasn't a variable.
And swapped there positions on subsequent runs (once a week) so position wasn't a variable.

Plenty of room for conjecture about modern lighting and it's impact on moths.

Really interesting. i won't of course give my conclusions.

Cheers J.P.

[Dan Salter]

all very interesting so far keep them coming folks as im meeting with my lectureres tomorrow.

[poschiavanus]

Here's an idea which is not quite,or not entirely, moths, but has scope for work over the winter if that is compatible with the dissertation submission date:

Insects (or Invertebrates) on Typha. There is a nice little micro Limnaecia phragmitella which is just emerging at the moment; the Bulrush Wainscot; some neat little beetles and the Bulrush/Reedmace bug Chilacis typhae. In particular the lifecycle of the last species is not well understood: nymphs and mating adults seem to be seen at times which completely contradict the literature.

Other things which appear on the heads include: Harlequin Ladybirds - what are they eating?; a largish ichneumon which is presumably a parasitoid of either the bug or the micromoth; numerous spiders.

Several of these species live in the heads throughout the winter, and can be collected and kept in securely closed containers (the caterpillars are apparently second only to Houdini for escaping).

A last thought is to compare the populations on Common & Lesser Bulrush Reedmace. My impression is that the latter does not sustain the same insect community even in mixed stands.

The limited over-wintering fauna, and the ability to keep them alive away from the plant gives some scope for a study which is not horrendously open ended. You do need access to a good stand of Typha (several hundred flower heads).

HTH,

poschiavanus

[Paul mabbott]

I'm not clear about a couple of things. Is this a dissertation proper or a practical study? When will you be doing it and how much time wil you have available?

Some interesting ideas here but time is a severe limitation for a lot of work!

[Dan Salter]

Erm im not even sure Paul....we havent been taught much in terms of what a diss really is yet?...we are on a course for the first week in august which i think is all about writing up and presenting your work.

All i know is our countryside management course they expect an ecology based diss and we were told to go get our research data over the summer....

as im having to start again i thought moths as they (or some) appear to have a later secong flight period into oct and even november however i dont really want to overlap into the academic year too much as i will be stuck for time in keeping up with the rest of the academic course.

can you explain to me what the difference is to a dissertation paper or a practical study?...i think this is both...you go do your study and get your data then write it up in the form of a dissertation/scientific paper? i presume anyway.

[Paul mabbott]

A dissertation is primarily where you take other peoples' work (data, opinions, methodologies &c); summarise it, analyse it, conclude whether it's good/bad/irrelevent ... can be all sorts of things but it's mainly a library (or computer) activity. It will mainly be based on work that has already been done than anything new ...

For a practical course study then you would need to devise a study plan for experimental/observational work - what do you want to test/demonstrate, what will be the methodology, how will you analyse the results.

It sounds to me as if you'll have very little time. I remember for my last BSc that a couple of us did butterfly counts for one week over different habitats in a nature reserve (hay meadow, grazed meadow, water meadow &c). Note the "one week" - no way were we going to get life-cycle studies, year-on-year changes &c! I suspect that you will have no more than four-six weeks to do the study so keep it down to something like differences between habitats, variation with the weather, variation between methods ...

If you're going to do moths, it would probably be easier to confine yourself to a small group (family?) rather than trying to identify everything and incorporate them into analyses. You will not discover a lot of rarities, you will not be able to deduce anything about the ones you do find - so keep it simple.

The best advice on choosing studies, articles to write etc is to first consider what you're (a) good at and (b) interested in ... the latter is less important for a study over a couple of weeks than several years of a PhD!

Good luck

Originally Posted by Dan Salter

Erm im not even sure Paul....we havent been taught much in terms of what a diss really is yet?...we are on a course for the first week in august which i think is all about writing up and presenting your work.

All i know is our countryside management course they expect an ecology based diss and we were told to go get our research data over the summer....

as im having to start again i thought moths as they (or some) appear to have a later secong flight period into oct and even november however i dont really want to overlap into the academic year too much as i will be stuck for time in keeping up with the rest of the academic course.

can you explain to me what the difference is to a dissertation paper or a practical study?...i think this is both...you go do your study and get your data then write it up in the form of a dissertation/scientific paper? i presume anyway.

[Dan Salter]

Yes i hear you cheers paul....

Hmm they definitely want us out there doing the ecology ourselves (my last plan involved 60 quadrats, soil samples, wind, drainage, aspect, nutrients blah blah blah...but i think they also expect a lit review whatever that is...so lots of analysing previous work as you mentioned....hmmm its all so vague to my class we are all a bit up in the air with it all?...

I was thinking...'just thinking' of something like a comparison of garden moth diversity between a rural garden location and an urban garden??...
or/also between a wildlife friendly garden and a wildlife unfriendly garden with non natives....that kind of thing (plus im having to buy the moth trap or traps myself so dont want to leave them in public places)



If im comparing a habitat or whatever wouldnt i need to run two traps on the same nights to make it fair etc?

[Paul mabbott]

Yes, someone else mentioned something on the line of the BUGS syudies but they were quite massive. Sure you can compare 'rural' with 'urban' but it's more cpmplex than that: what sort of uban, what sort of rural (woodland, meadow, farmland, wasteland ....)? In a short study you would want to try and get most variables eliminated (that is, not variable!). So if you're dealing with plant eaters/feeders like most moths then you would want to study one or two plants - if you got the timing right and there were caterpillars about then you could do something quite interesting but imagines are fly-by-nights and you can't really say that your finding them proves anything. So, my advice is to compare similar but different things - small v medium v large garden in the same neighbourhood (not one in Canterbury and one in Balham). Heavily tended garden v unkempt garden next door. Hawthorn v blackthorn v leylandii v whatever hedgerow. Compare, in the same place, at the same times - light, interception, sugaring, visual search.

This last 'technical' idea is good because you would need to consider it anyway!

Going back to your 'urban' versus 'rural', you might find greater diversity in and organic, large garden in a city than you do in a small countryside in farmland where the gardener uses every biocide under the sun!

There's a lot of scope

Originally Posted by Dan Salter

Yes i hear you cheers paul....

Hmm they definitely want us out there doing the ecology ourselves (my last plan involved 60 quadrats, soil samples, wind, drainage, aspect, nutrients blah blah blah...but i think they also expect a lit review whatever that is...so lots of analysing previous work as you mentioned....hmmm its all so vague to my class we are all a bit up in the air with it all?...

I was thinking...'just thinking' of something like a comparison of garden moth diversity between a rural garden location and an urban garden??...
or/also between a wildlife friendly garden and a wildlife unfriendly garden with non natives....that kind of thing (plus im having to buy the moth trap or traps myself so dont want to leave them in public places)



If im comparing a habitat or whatever wouldnt i need to run two traps on the same nights to make it fair etc?

[Dan Salter]

Yes thats what i meant i didnt explain very well...there are 4 things...

So...Rural location
Wildlife friendly garden
Non wildlife friendly garden


then Urban location
Wildlife friendly garden
Non wildlife friendly garden

Does that make sense?

So im kind of asking is garden moth diversity affected by location or garden type?

[poschiavanus]

Just following this up. Obviously my suggestion doesn't fit the timeframe. Perhaps it'll be some use for someone in the future (maybe!).

For comparing moths in different habitats you'll really have to be careful about controls. In short you should run identical traps for the same time in the experimental locations. Otherwise your results will be useless because of factors like the weather. You will also need to control your own ID skills (for instance compile a list of moths which you are confident about & only score those): doesn't stop you from recording the others, but makes the protocol simpler. Availability of food plants may be another issue: your 'wildlife unfriendly garden' may have one or two species which completely distort the results. Again you may be able to control this by looking at polyphagous species (lots of them in my garden moth sessions).

Obviously in reality you're going to select sites based on those you to which you can get access. However, your examiner should be looking for some 'objective' selection criteria. Doesn't need to be an obstacle, but does need some thought to it. One way you could get round this and add something to the dissertation is if you could survey the plants in the garden locations to give some idea of diversity.

For the dissertation itself: find out how big its expected to be - most courses have a size range, say 3000-5000 words. As it's research based the usual formula is

• Introduction (including literature review). Why? Who has done done what before?
• Methodology. How? Where? When?
• Results. What?
• Conclusions (including more literature review).

No one expects a published paper, so as long as you have some results, and can discuss them intelligibly, that's OK. Given the scope for insects, the weather and so on ruining a neatly conceived project (I've known someone lose a year of PhD data from one thunder storm at the wrong time) a lot of the marking focus is likely to be on three points:

• Is the original question sensible?
• Is the methodology OK?
• Is the author aware of the literature?

Lastly, if you start second week in August and run through to mid October that gives about 10 weeks for data collection, BUT only 2 weeks to design the study, get the kit etc.

I hope these comments might be of some use. I wish you the very best of luck.

poschiavanus

[Paul mabbott]

Or species diversity of plants? In that experiment, my first questions would be, "How many plant species are there?"; the second would be, "What are the plant species and are some of these plants more attractive to a range of lepidopteran species than others ...".

Good advice from Posch .... in many ways, in the conclusion, your critique of your methodology is the most important. If your plan and observations produced 'rubbish' data then admit that and analyse the faults; don't try and pretend there was no problem and that the moths were deliberately being difficult!

Originally Posted by Dan Salter

............
So im kind of asking is garden moth diversity affected by location or garden type?

[thunder]

Dan, can you beg borrow or steal five identical moth traps?

henrya

[Dan Salter]

Lots of brilliant advice here thanks guys i will read through it properly tomorrow.

As for the traps....i was maybe going to be able to get or buy 2...5 maybe a stretch but who knows?...thing is...what the methodology ends up being or what the lectureres come up with kind of dictates what traps i need to buy or borrow...if i go the garden route i would like mains powered robinsons etc....but if i am going to be in the middle of no where i need to think about portable or battery powered etc.

[Dan Salter]

Ok...so....with all its faults and limitations etc aside, of which i/my tutors are fully aware, they are happy with an Urban high density housing, low density green space versus Rural low density housing versus high density green space comparison....taking into account things such as light pollution etc.

I have been lent a robinson trap as well....

I had my first ever garden trapping session (pilot study) on thursday night/friday morn which produced good results (i presume?)...but it took me the best part of yesterday to caupture/identify and count and record all the moths..

My question now is Technique? tips? the normal procedure?...

Ok so ...i checked the dawn and dusk times online and turned the trap on (125watt MV) at 9:45pm then got up at 5am and turned it off...

Now my lecturer who lent me the trap told me i should then 'cover' with a sheet to settle them down and stop the birds eating them...

But do you all then at 5am start the sorting counting process? i was still half asleep so put the trap in the shade and went back to bed...i started sorting through at around 10am in the large garage/lean too we have....however my technique is obviously rubbish as sooooooo many escaped and i ended up chasing them round the garage? in all the books and photos the moths go to sleep and just sit there in the day when you pot them up? but not my moths =(...i did have a paintbrish but as soon as i tried to coax them into the sampling pots they just flew away!...

Where am i going wrong or is this just part of the fun of mothing as i would be gutted if i had something special only for it to escape before i could identify it?

What technique do you all use?...i have a timer which i could use to turn the trap on or off with but would i still need to get up at 4am to cover the trap with a sheet?...

Any tips greatly appreciated.....mind you im NOT moaning...i loved it...and even though i had neck ache after so many long hours bent over the lewington book and chasing moths about i loved it!...my mother was fascinated with my Elephant Hawk, Buff tip and 2 large Poplar Hawks!

[poschiavanus]

Dan,

Great to hear that you're making good progress. I'd definitely use the timer! If you do a session every 2-3 days over the next couple of weeks I'm sure you'll hone your catching practice!

I can't offer any advice about catching them: I sit by the light until I've had enough, or I've run out of pots. I pot the ones I can't identify, or want to photograph. I suspect that an earlier start with analysing the trap might help, particularly as its so warm. Practice will help, but a paintbrush for moving them about sounds a bit overly sensitive: I think you may get a bit more brutal with time!

DONT spend all your time worrying about the fancy ones that got away: you'll get panned for this by the examiners, with phrases like "not scientific" "not objective" etc. It's more important to focus on getting a count of all the Riband Waves, Large Yellow Underwings, Heart & Darts and whatever is the most common over the coming weeks. These are the species which might give some statistical meaningfulness to the study. Check the species which cause confusion (most county recorders have a list of these) and decide how you are going to record them.

Lastly, I noticed a reference to a paper on moth trapping in a garden in Atropos Vol 10 pp 28-31 (2000). No doubt there are others. If you can get hold of a few of these you'll get the literature review side sorted.

Cheers,

poschiavanus

PS. Would love a Buff Tip in the garden!

[Dan Salter]

Thanks pos....good advice again.

I shall search out that paper and when the study starts proper i had fully intended to concentrate on target species or the common obvious species...i was pulling my hair out yesterday over the darts and pugs and other brown jobbies!.

I will put my list and tally up on here shortly as im keen to know how many blinding mistakes i have made...as im shure my id is not up to speed yet...

[naturegirl]

Hi Dan!

Thanks for PM. I would have looked at your thread anyway as moths are 'my thing'.

Personally, I do not get up at 4.30am!! Although when my insomnia is at it's worst I am still awake then . And have been known to bring my trap into my kitchen before going back to bed at that time!

I would have a timer if possible as moths caught in the trap will seek the darkest hiding place upon daylight so not needing the covering. In my experience, covering the trap will bring it's occupants up to the cover whereupon they will buzz off when you uncover it! Ok if somewhere restrained but otherwise not good.

Do you not have an experienced moth-er to call upon locally? That would help you no end! When I was just starting it would take me endless hours to id all that was in my trap and I so wished I had someone to call upon then .

However, it gave me such experience that I can never replace. Just be glad that you do not have a partner to impress as to your culinary skills or to look after all 4 children ......... and involve yourself in moth-ing for yourself.....

Best