hoverfly today for id please

[Naturenutz]

I found this hover resting on a flower head today,it was very docile due to the cold cloudy weather.

[JRsbugs]

All I can say is it's a Syrphus male. There's 4 very similar, some can't be separated, about the only one you could say it was is S. ribesii if you could see it had mostly yellow hind femora but that isn't visible.

Janet

[Naturenutz]

I Have another photo janet,not sure they will help though

[JRsbugs]

No I'm afraid it doesn't, but I think I can see a little black on the hind femora. That doesn't help as even S. ribesii can have mostly black on the hind femora, it's those which don't have it can be separated from the others.

[Jason Green]

Evening NN,

I'd say it's either Syrphus ribesii, vitripennis or torvus - the only other one is rectus but I can't find much about it so will discount that. I'm also unsure of how reliable femoral colouration is (barr ribesii) - but yours unfortunately doesn't show that. They are best ID'd by specimen, and then characters include fine wing detail, the ocular triangle and of course the male genitals!

Originally Posted by JRsbugs

There's 4 very similar, some can't be separated

They certainly can by a specimen and/or microscopy of genitalia with males or wing/oculars with girls, but not in photographs as I think you mean

Take care,

Jason

[JRsbugs]

Originally Posted by Jason Green

They certainly can by a specimen and/or microscopy of genitalia with males or wing/oculars with girls, but not in photographs as I think you mean

Take care,

Jason

I think you know I meant by photos Jason, as I believe it was me who educated you in the first place on these four.

According to this site, S, vitripennis is indistinguishable from S. rectus, which seems to be a relative newcomer on the scene.

Entomology Collection > Syrphus vitripennis

[Jason Green]

Originally Posted by JRsbugs

I think you know I meant by photos Jason

Indeed I did, as I said - but others may not have known, and thought you meant even microscopically. Just to clear up any possible confusion - I mean, that even had me fact-checking!

Originally Posted by JRsbugs

According to this site, S, vitripennis is indistinguishable from S. rectus, which seems to be a relative newcomer on the scene.

I wasn't aware - that's probably why I can't find much about it! I see the males can't be seperated (I wonder why - even genitalia?) - so I suppose the girls could be by oculars/wing examination of microscopic details, or not? It only says males.

What a complicated lot!

[Naturenutz]

thanks for that info janet/jason.Think ill have to take a microscope into the field .I had ribesii identified on here last year i think.this one seemed to have a very small
crimson band that did not show in the photo,s towards the tail/abdomen end but not on the tip end.Although may have been a trick of light.

[Jason Green]

Originally Posted by Naturenutz

Think ill have to take a microscope into the field

...and either a very small container to keep it still, or ethyl acetate and dissection gear!

Actually, a lot of 20x microscopes are battery-powered and very portable. Still, you'd need a very cold fly to stay still long enough! Nice images by the way - what is that it's on? It looks like a nice magnet for them.

[Naturenutz]

Hi jason,this one was too cold to move i think,i was focusing real close and it never moved,sometimes i have to be careful i dont knock them with the zoom .I will put the flower in for identification as i have a few pics of it.