Unidentified Ladybird Pupa

[ChasMacey]

Hi,

Here are a number of the pupa that I would like to try and identify (sorry it's so many) I think some may be the same species but I believe there are several different ones here.
















Any pointers would be welcome.


Thanks in advance Chas

[Paul mabbott]

I've just been called to dinner but on a cursory scan there are couple of 7-spots but I think that #3 is a cream-spot (Calvia 14-guttata). #5 is a fly, perhaps syrphid?. #6 may be a 'harlequin' (Harmonia axyridis) but the business-end isn't in focus. I've no idea what #7 is! An interesting collection - I'll be back but I suspect someone will be in before me!

[Pudding4brains]

I always thought/hoped that there was some point in developing the fine art of ladybird pupae photo-identification but have had to prove many of my own "working thesis" wrong - mostly those based on colour patterns have proven useless.

So, I would have to agree with Paul mostly on 5=Syrphid and 7="interesting" - but the real ladybird pupae are tricky at best.

To kick it off, I have not even begun serious analysis of all my own pupa-images yet, so this is all very premature and should probably best be ignored completely(!):

First of all, size-indications would/could have helped somewhat.

Second, it is much easier to say what it is not Now that's quite cheap, but I would tend to disagree with Paul on the Cal.qua. for No.3, as I would expect the little "side wings" (have no idea what these should be called) to be much more distinct for Cal.qua.. There is a hint of them but the image is not at all clear in that area, but I still think they should be better visible even from that perspective.

Also, for no. 6 I would have put my money's worth on Coc.sep.. Paul is right that the shedded larval skin is not quite well enough in focus, but to me it still looks a lot more like a Coc.sep. skin than a Har.axy. one. Also on this one the "impression" of size, jizz and colour all seem to fit better for Coc.sep. than any of the other ones.

Which brings me to "the rest" ... to me with all the basically brown hues (as opposed to "orange") they might as well be Adalia as Coc.cep. - or maybe even something else. As stated above though, colour/pattern is a bad indicator (very variable). This is where size would have been nice to know as Adalia pupa (like the beetles) are distinctly smaller than Coc.sep..

If anyone (Paul, Dogghound, ...?) has good morphological characters for these pupa I would love to know about about it - as stated I haven't done much serious looking at that yet.

Purely on jizz I would, at my current state of "knowledge", have 1 and 6 down for Coc.sep. and the rest for Adalia - but seeing that the leafs under 1,2 and 4 suggest they might be the same photo session ....

So, stricktly speaking I would have to remain at: "If you want to know, you gotta breed'em out" (which is actually no effort at all and gives you amazing photo ops for very fresh beetles pumping up their wings etc!!)

In general there are some pupa that are quite distinctive (within the limited range of species known for the UK and/or NL), but for these particular ones I'm just not sure ... (yet?).

Sorry,
Arp

[Pudding4brains]

Memory plays dirty tricks in one's mind ... just had a quick browse through some pupa-images and am beginning to shift slightly more toward Coc.sep. for 2 and 4 also - leaving only 3 as a more probable Adalia ... but as stated before none of them really certain though - that doesn't change much.

[Dogghound]

1. Coccinella septempunctata 7 spot
2. Adalia bipunctata 2 spot (not 100% confident on this)
3. Adalia bipunctata 2 spot
4. Coccinella septempunctata 7 spot
6. Coccinella septempunctata 7 spot

5, 7 both syrphid pupa.

[ChasMacey]

Thanks Guy's

Had an idea that it was not going to be straight forward

Most of the pictures were from different sessions but 4 of them are on the same type of plant (purple sage).

Looks as though I will have to start breeding them out as you say, - always been wary of doing this incase I'm not sucsessfull and reduce their numbers even more. However at the rate the pupa's disappeared off the plants last year something was certainly feasting but I never managed to see what.


Thanks again for the comments


Regards Chas

[ChasMacey]

Thankyou Dogghound,

posted my last reply before I had read your's


Regards Chas

[Dogghound]

If you take the pupa, dont just pull the ppa off the plant pull the leaf with the pupa on off th plant, this way you wont damage the pupa and it should emerge as normal.

[Pudding4brains]

Hi All and especially Dogghound,

Originally Posted by Dogghound

2. Adalia bipunctata 2 spot (not 100% confident on this)

Am I right in assuming that this means you are 100% "confident" about the others? As I'm still trying to "learn" these critters I would be very interested in knowing what it is exactly that makes you so confident - are there any special characters that you can point out to separate 7-spot from 2-spot pupa and/or the two Adalias from each other? Or is it mostly based on the "experienced eye of the master" (which is often as valid of course - just not something one could transfer in words easily).

Interested,
Arp

[Dogghound]

Originally Posted by Pudding4brains

Hi All and especially Dogghound,

Am I right in assuming that this means you are 100% "confident" about the others? As I'm still trying to "learn" these critters I would be very interested in knowing what it is exactly that makes you so confident - are there any special characters that you can point out to separate 7-spot from 2-spot pupa and/or the two Adalias from each other? Or is it mostly based on the "experienced eye of the master" (which is often as valid of course - just not something one could transfer in words easily).

Interested,
Arp

Hello pudding, good question. The first question am i confident? Yes . The second, two spot and seven spot pupa are moderately distinctive. Seven spot range from mottled to distinct spots. The colour is usually orange/red and black. With an M shape between the elytra at the top of the abdomen, this sometimes stretches down the abdomen in spots.(hard to explain but you get used to them). The elytra of less mottled individuals can be seen to have spots on. (I know your going to say Harmonia have this and are a similar size 8mm) but Harmonia almost always have a spiky larval skin at the bottom of the pupa, which coccinella dont due to their smooth larva. The two spot, very distinctive, mottled with cream and in most individuals have a line running across the protonum. Sometimes extending onto the abdomen.

Rite in the field you have clues such as pupa position in relation to other adults and larva which helps, and its size (Adalia 5mm, Coccinella 8mm for example), And often in close proximity to food (aphids, coccids etc) which can define species.

Sorry this is quite brief, they are hard to describe due to the variability of them, but with experience are alot easier.