Dragon ID please

[Za]

Hiya, today at Chobham common I found several dragons,broad bodied chasers, a golden ringed, and these 2.
Is the first an Emperor? It seemed very green!
The second I have no idea about.
Thanks.





Za

[jordanno]

im not sure but the top one looks like its layin eggs

[Wild-Woman]

The top one is a female Emperor ovipositing, the second I think could be an over-mature Common Darter but get that checked out by Steve to make sure.
Jules

[Za]

Cheers for that, I thought the first might have been an Emperor, but as it was almost fluorescent green I hoped for something special
Za

[aeshna5]

Yes first is an Emperor ovipositing; second is female Keeled Skimmer, a common species on the heathland bogs at Chobham- note the dorsal stripe!

[wint]

Originally Posted by aeshna5

Yes first is an Emperor ovipositing; second is female Keeled Skimmer, a common species on the heathland bogs at Chobham- note the dorsal stripe!

Hi aeshna5

I'm struggling to see why it's not an overmature female Common Darter. The patterns on the top of segments 8/9/10 seem to be right and the black line along the side of the abdomen is broken whereas Keeled has a pretty even line down both the top and side of the abdomen. Also Keeled has fairly wide complete antehumeral stripes whereas this individual has just a couple of small incomplete stripes. The legs and eyes look spot on for Common too but I'm probably completely wrong!

Paul

[harasseddad]

Originally Posted by wint

Hi aeshna5

I'm struggling to see why it's not an overmature female Common Darter. The patterns on the top of segments 8/9/10 seem to be right and the black line along the side of the abdomen is broken whereas Keeled has a pretty even line down both the top and side of the abdomen. Also Keeled has fairly wide complete antehumeral stripes whereas this individual has just a couple of small incomplete stripes. The legs and eyes look spot on for Common too but I'm probably completely wrong!

Paul

My first impression when I saw it was keeled, but you make some good points. Not too sure about the legs - I'm not seeing stripes on the rear two pairs, but this might be the angle of the photo. In favour of keeled there's the wing veination, particularly the band of cells above IR3 which appear to run direct to the lower edge, whereas in striolatum they double before the end. But it's not easy to see the ending in the photo. The pterostigma seems wider than I'd expect for striolatum as well. There does not appear to be any "side panels" to the thorax, which ought to be there in the darter, but everything else you mention is right, and I'd add that the thorax lacks the markings between the wings that I'd expect to see in coerulescens. Also there's the yellow 'Y' mark just in front of the wings - which is indicative of common darter. So all in all I'm inclined to say your right - it's a confusingly marked darter.

[almostnormal]

i'm pretty certain its an over mature common darter, looking at the pterostigma, blackish brown rather than yellowy-brown and the yellow on the wing is restricted to the basal area, whereas on keeled its much more noticeable.

although my first thought was female keeled. had to get the book out to check!

[wint]

Originally Posted by harasseddad

My first impression when I saw it was keeled, but you make some good points. Not too sure about the legs - I'm not seeing stripes on the rear two pairs, but this might be the angle of the photo. In favour of keeled there's the wing veination, particularly the band of cells above IR3 which appear to run direct to the lower edge, whereas in striolatum they double before the end. But it's not easy to see the ending in the photo. The pterostigma seems wider than I'd expect for striolatum as well. There does not appear to be any "side panels" to the thorax, which ought to be there in the darter, but everything else you mention is right, and I'd add that the thorax lacks the markings between the wings that I'd expect to see in coerulescens. Also there's the yellow 'Y' mark just in front of the wings - which is indicative of common darter. So all in all I'm inclined to say your right - it's a confusingly marked darter.

I've tried counting the forewing Ax but either my eyesight has got worse (probable) or they're not discernible from the photo (possible). I asked a friend to have a look at the pic and hios response was "I don't normally have trouble with these two, but this a bit tricky!". Perhaps Za has other pics where the wings are in a parallel plane with the camera. A very interesting dragonfly - I've only seen female Keeled Skimmers hanging from foliage which gives a rather different perspective.

Paul