Guidance wanted in use of Beetle Key

[Nettle Runner]

I tried to key out this beetle using the 'Key to families of beetles' by DM Unwin (AIDGAP) but failed miserably. I kept keying out at K49. Where am I going wrong?



These are the criteria I have used
Beetle is about 12mm in length
Antennae are 11 segments filiform
Tarsi are 3-3-3
not hairy
I found A9 and A10 confusing, but which ever way I read them I still keyed out at K49
This was my first real attempt at using the key. Must try harder seems to be my conclusion.
If you experts can offer some guidance, I will appreciate it.
Thanks
Les

[GRH]

The final thin segment on the legs with the tarsal claws at the end is also a tarsal segment, so this is not 3-3-3. This family has 4 tarsal segments on all legs. (I'll let you work it out for yourself, which is always the best way to learn, once pointed in the right direction).

Greg

[Paul mabbott]

I must admit, I have never found Unwin easy and have often given up on it (I haven't used it for a few years, in fact) - I'll have a look tomorrow and try and key along with you but it's too late now ...
One clue is the large tarsal pads - the 'feet', I suppose - which are found in Chrysomelidae (leaf beetles) but the overall appearance to me is of one of the Tenebrionidae (darkling beetles) but I've had a hard week .... I'll try and work through it tomorrow ... if I get up before the football starts!

[C C]

Originally Posted by Paul mabbott

I must admit, I have never found Unwin easy and have often given up on it (I haven't used it for a few years, in fact) - I'll have a look tomorrow and try and key along with you but it's too late now ...
One clue is the large tarsal pads - the 'feet', I suppose - which are found in Chrysomelidae (leaf beetles) but the overall appearance to me is of one of the Tenebrionidae (darkling beetles) but I've had a hard week .... I'll try and work through it tomorrow ... if I get up before the football starts!

Paul, are there any keys that you could recomend.

I use the Delta intkeys British Insects - Contents
I find them very useful, but they are a bit laborious.

[Paul mabbott]

Originally Posted by GRH

The final thin segment on the legs with the tarsal claws at the end is also a tarsal segment, so this is not 3-3-3. This family has 4 tarsal segments on all legs. (I'll let you work it out for yourself, which is always the best way to learn, once pointed in the right direction).

Greg

Yes, counting the tarsal segments is always a problem - especially with the longicorns where one is very small and hidden by the larger one! With any primary key - to families - there are usually exceptions .... I use Joy (out of print), when I use one at all, this takes you to pseudo-families - they're not taxonomically related but share certain characteristics, doing much what Unwin does but giving them names: Heteromera, Clavicornia, Sternoxia &c &c and then keys these to families ... &c.. ....

[Nettle Runner]

Thanks CC and Paul for your comments.

CC. Following your re-assessment of the tarsi as 4-4-4, I now key out at Tenebrionidae (Darkling Beetles). The comments given against this beetle are that the tarsi are usually 5-5-4 usually and typically 11 segmented antennae.

I read that the tarsal formula, 4-4-4, is typical in very small tenebrionids, which does not fitting in with my image.

Don't know where to go next

Les

[Laurence Clemons]

There is a Royal Entomological Society Handbook on Tenebrionidae. Check one of the on-line booksellers to see if it is still available.

[Paul mabbott]

Yo, nettle, I'm getting more confused than you. Can you just, please, run through your conclusions (A1 > A5 > H6 > ... whatever) stage by stage?
It's good fun this identifying beetles!

[Jennywrenny]

Originally Posted by Paul mabbott

Yo, nettle,

Is President Bush in the room?

[Paul mabbott]

Originally Posted by Jennywrenny

Is President Bush in the room?

Wouldn't be at all surprised if the bar steward weren't listening in to our every word (mispelled as they might be ...). Have you ever thought what the CIA might make of some of the messages on this forum?