Hello from a well known animal artist and conservation lobbyist

[CurreHound]

I understand that I am not allowed to give personal details out here.
This may be aswell as sometimes what I have to say may not be popular with some of you.
I am aligned to the new conservation thinking. Yes the one that keeps pointing out that hunting is good for conservation; especially by indigenous peoples. I work with them sometimes. That may not have much relevance here in terms of British conservation you may think.
There is no difference. If you hunt...for whatever reason...you must protect habitat for quarry. Currently the Cree ain't very happy with the fact we may stop having their bearskins for the guards. I don't blame them. They have a right to manage the land and the wildlife and the way they do it is good for conservation.

Ahh I hear you cry. It is very different; a culture that hunts for subsistence.
This is a patronising view and on which has never spent time with native peoples. A view that doesn't appreciate that they need to sell furs or have hunting tourism to earn money. Money that protects their forests and hunting grounds from development by logging energy companies and crass tourism. Trouble with the eco tourists is they didn't spend a lot.
They enjoy hunting and celebrate it. As a ritual, there is little difference between theirs and british foxhunting. Yes the quarry isn't eaten and the fur is not worn or sold. Matters little to the animal. But native people hunt for sport too. Prince Charles gets on very well with the Cree for a reason. They share, as I do, this view of conservation.
Both ...most...kinds of hunting are good for habitat protection. Furs are another thing for example that many so called animal lovers object to. Ironic that a westen society that turned its back on fur twenty five years ago has done more damage to the environmnt in its exploitation of non renewable rsources to provide heat and synthetic clothing to replace them than any other human culture. That is not coincidence. They are linked. Remember if well managed, animals are infinitely renewable as a resource. "Where are your bear?" a Russian hunter once said to me.


Two million years and a small eco footprint by hunter cultures, and now suddenly its wrong. And now we do massive damage with our "enlightened" ways.

We must learn from traditional animal dependant economies and hunting societies. Land in the modern world is of conomic importance. If we rid the world of hunting and animal farming we must replace it with something else. So far, that has brought the planet to the brink of destruction.
If you think tax on 4x4s is anything other than an excuse to raise tax, I believe you are naive.

Now greenpeace are getting the message and trying to help the Sami. They wouldn't have needed any help if we had bought their fur harvest and rejected cheap furniture and valued furniture to be long lasting. Feel guity now about chucking grandma's barley twist table out and having that cool one from a certain scandinavian store that won't last ten years? So you should be.

If global warming is proven to be caused by CO2 emissions, then don't you think the massive destruction of forest for "alternative" land use may have an imporatnt role? Trees absorb CO2 don't they?
A good friend of mine worked with Evenkian native people on a fur farm twenty years ago. Now these same native pople, who once hunted sable and farmed foxes for the fur trade, had forests and were secure, are either poverty stricken, work for the oil industry, or in logging. Think of that next time you put on synthetic clothing, turn the heating up because its cold, or buy some cheap wood furniture, play a cd by paul McCartney or waste paper. We have made them change. Now they are angry.
Th same is true in Canada, and waht grenpeace did to the Inuit in the 70s was a disgrace and now some groups are at it again.
They are returning to their traditional ways and the fashion industry has responded. DKNY was the first and the inuit have now shown furs on Paris catwalks. Certain "animal" charities have invested a lot on tugging our heartstrings while being compacent in habitat destruction; and have set once again their fundraising on attacking this.

In the UK, one must consider too the fabulous habitat protection offered by hunting shhoting and fishing. You may not have the stomach for it; I have no interest in doing it. But I am glad and appreciative it is all there. Pheasant and Rabbit are game animals; not indigenous wildlife. The former offers natural woodland in which Red Squirrels thrive. Often alongside grey I may add. Virtually the only Red Squirrels left are on such lands. Coverts for foxes are useless econimically, and why would farmers otherwise have them? Yet they are oasis for wildlife. Natural hedgrows were encouraged by farmers. They are good for horses to jump, but also the farmer enjoys wildlife as much as any of us. I don't lik seeing th wir fences instead. I don't like seeing the changes in rural life by urban poeple settling there; often with false gardens which do little for wildlife. I certainly don't like a government who bans foxhunting, and has the idea of taxing 4x4s as its soluton to global warming, cutting into green belt with urban development.

Anyway I thought I would join. I came here to read about something else entirely but thought I would contribute with maybe a different perspective on some matters. I also look forward to learning here and seeing other peoples insights and perspectives.

[FreckledElm]

in a squirrel's nutshell - you love wildlife to death...

[CurreHound]

No it is the society you support with its "alternatives" to animals as a resource that is doing that. Animals are infinitely renewable if managed correctly. The alternatives are not.
That is my point.
As I said I do not hunt and do not eat meat. But both can protect animal habitats in a way that urban western society has failed miserably to do and animal rights organisations and popular global culture have helped destroy habitats the world over. It takes a barrel of oil to make a synthetic coat , it isn't repaiirable, it is disposable, is non recyclable and fills landfills. Yet somehow that is presented as animal friendly. In addition it dosn't keep you warm, so we have to jack up heating which may be damaging the climate, and having an appalling effect on wildlife in the arctic and sub arctic.

in addition for example the disgraceful relocation of the Bushmen of the kalahari Hunting culture under allegation that it was damaging wildlife when really diamonds had been found on their land is typical of the way the west uses anti hunting arguments to release land for exploitation.

i love animals and live for them I have devoted my whole life to them and seen this lie perpetuated for far too long. Our "enlightened" attitude toward them is destroying them in vast numbers.

[Blackbrook Eye]

Hi CurreHound. While I agree with your statements in principle please take into account that most of the folk on this forum do not get the priveledge of visiting the far flung places of the world and meeting the people that you mention, let alone getting to understand their point of view. In Britain wherever you go you are on someone elses property unless you are fortunate enough to own it yourself. As others defend their privacy strenuously, access to the countryside, apart from footpaths is restricted to public parks and similar areas ( also owned by somebody else ) and which by their nature give a sanitised view of the countryside. Who can blame the people, so restrained, from wanting to preserve everything they are allowed to see. Education is the answer, and you can't be educated by what you don't know exists. More freedom of access might help, but then that brings its own set of problems. So far as sustainable fur trade is concerned, yes to a point, but there will always be someone who wants what no-one else has got, and that raises the issue of endangered species, such as spotted cats etc. Highly problematical post this, I hope to hear more opinions. Oh welcome by the way.

[The Black Rabbit]

What an interesting post currehound.
Wish I read it first at a decent hour...
Doug

[CurreHound]

Hi Blackbrook and thankyou for the welcome.
the world is not off limits you know!
I don't know how that perception has arisen.
I don't havee a pass which says "access all areas" but I have never had any problem. It is just a matter of simple courtesy and you go where you want if you are not indulging in something that is going to cause problems, and you ask.
A farmer will know every nest, every area where there are snakes, every area where there are endangered species there. The public do not. So , if you want to sit by a river in a farmers field go and ask him. He will likely take you to a nice spot where you may see Otter and kingfisher. But if he says don't go there because the horses will fret or there are Adder there he is most likely telling you the truth.

All I do when I want to go somwhere is ring and ask. Nobody since I was 8 years old ever said no to me unless it was dangerous for me and the animals.

For example. If one wanted to go and watch the horses work in the morning on Lambourn downs or Newmarket heath you can. Nobody will stop you and you will be greeted with good morning by everyone on horseback. You will see myriad wildlife. Bats owls pheasant Fox hare deer all sorts. However you should go with someone who is used to horses, and take great care in driving. The same is true if you go to watch the hunt. As long as you are not rude or violent even antis go. Many antis often end up switching sides and supporting the hunt; including incidentally many former senior members of the league Against cruel Sports!

Where would you like to go? Hunt wolf with eagles on horseback in Mongolia with nomadic tribes? See wild marsh ponies descnded from Roman Arabians and dragon flies as big as I have ever seen on the Gower peninsula while surfing? Its possible.

The truth is we never needed this government bill. It was designed purposefully to create conflict with the countryside. It is the politik of envy. They want the land for alternative ecnomic activity and to turn it into a theme park in little areas. Meanwhile they will rape it for housing, business developments, wind farms (huh see what they are doing in Wales to birds) bio fuel crops etc. So, they have purposefully (and many believe foot and mouth part of that) undermined the animal based rural economy; and I am sick of seeing habitat vanish in the last ten years.
Now people think they have the right to be on the land there is conflict because they are not respecting the code and conduct of courtsy and respect. They are boldly walking into fields full of horses and spooking them.

There is NO right of way throught the field. People now imagine everywhere is open.

However, the farmer never ever stopped anyone from using it if they asked nicely.
"can we have a picnic please?" was the way it always was, and every farmer would be pleased to take the to the best spot where no animals would be disturbed or cause you danger . Indeed, most country pubs and farms benefit from pople coming. They want you to come! just not with the attitude that this government has given people.
As I said, I live in the city myself.

I know one farmer round here who was worried by organised ritualistic attacks on horses and stock nearby. Anyway, some local wiccans or something contacted him to assure him it wasn't them. He got friendly with them and now they have permission to dance about naked in his woods if they are careful. Indeed; he has receently lost his wife sadly; it wouldn't surprise me if he was joining in he's a bit of a one! The kitchen is full of goth girls every time I go there having a bottle of wine!

Now. Contrast this with two incidents recently at a local racing yard.
One morning the horses couldn't get on the gallops because a car was parked on the entrance with two people shagging. The horses were all fired up ready to go and on lad got thrown breaking his collar bone. Second incident involved the gallops man who sports a mohican.
He politly asked while wearing his cap that som lads CAMPED ON THE GALLOPS move quickly. They refused. he took off his cap and staryting balling athe them and pulling the tnt apart. They were scared and he just got them off in tim bfore 8 horses thundred up the gallops at 40mph.

Now that latter incident the kids were "we have the right to be here". Now of course they realised why they did not have that right. That gallop cost ?60 000 and the damage they had done to it could have made a horse break its leg. The Gallops man just levelled it in time. The lads were very sheepish and know better next time. But they said he wasn't what they were expecting because he had a pink mohican. So they had attitude against him in a country cap you see. his girlfirnd is the amateur jockey there btw.

I suggest anyone who wants access to countryside gets friendly with th "natives" at local rituals. The point to point is the best way of doing this. It brings people from town and country together for amateur steeplechasing in farmers fields, and is amazing social function. Easy to get involved, You can even sponsor a fence or a race for about £100 to £200 and get sponsors badges for the sponsors tent. All your drink and food will thwn bw free and you will most likely be waited on by the landowners wife (and if you are lucky maybe her model daughter with home made food. The one thing you will NOT find there is any hostility or snobbery. You will see people like Zara Phillips and top trainers like Paul Nicholls at some. All you need to do is be polite, frinendly and have respect for what is going on. There is no snobbery or hostility; its imagined. Unless of course you go with the wrong attitude and start slagging off hunting or something.

It is the same in the wildrness. March into Saskatchewan like you own the place and you will be quickly marched out of it again by the Cree . if you don't get killed by a br first of course. Get in touch with the Cree on the net and they will give you the trip of a liftime.

Now. Your question about endangered species and furs. All fur federations and designers support CITES. Indeed, many fur farms now breed aniamls (because their husbandry is so good) exclusively for zoos and restocking the wilderness. This is espcially the case with Lynx.
There is one who does it in Russia. They don't use the lynx for fur at all now on that farm. In some cases if it means that farmd lynx make a few furs for rich Russian oligarchs wives but most contribute to conservation that is good. Wild lynx is not used.
The greatest threats to wild big cats a not the few poached and sold by unscrupulous dealers. It is habitat destruction. In west Africa for example the leopard is virtually extinct becasue the land has been converted to cofffe plantation. Becaus th lopards natural pry is gone then the leopard pryed on 7 year old coff pickers. When your child goes missing and his rotted half eaten carcass is found up a tree then the leopard evrywhere in the area gets it.
So the leopard there hunted for ten thousnad years for fur and survives, then survives a century of big game hunting, and is still fairly abundant, suddenly goes extinct for coffee and sugar?
I wish people realised that when they sit sipping it guilt free yet would condemn fur.
It is possible to buy leopard friendly coffee by the way. I can't see much hope for African wildlife while the IMF and free trade movement encourage them in these ways.

Far better is the situation in namibia and South Africa where big game hunting has returned and the indigenous populations earn money from that so protect the fragile habitat. cheetah and leopard populations are booming there.
Even the wwf have adopted hunting areas in Africa now: big game hunting in Cameroon and Sable reserves in Siberia for example.

Of course I can back all this up with evidence should you require it. Also evidence of high welfare standards on fur farms.

I was once asked to identify customs seized furs. They suspected there were dog and cat and leopard and jaguar. Most were mouton dyed to resemble big cat. Much softer actually and made from sheep. Even an alleged tiger fur was in fact Rabbit sheared and dyed. The dog was actuallly tanuki and the cat was all Rabbit.
Yes these animals are used but not by the legitimate fur trade. They sometimes in the case of dog and cat, end up as trims for parka hoods and they are so bad you would think them fake. no way could they ver pass as Mink or Fox. A friend even had to pull a girl at a London train station having a go at a lady in a Mink. The girl actually had dog fur on her parka hood. She thought it fake. The Mink was spectacular and would hav required incredible animal husbadnry including grooming.

Problem is with such things people can misinterpet what they see, In Argentina for example, a video once showed the chinchilla in dusty pens. These are actually bathing pens. Chinchilla bathe in volcanic ash not water which has to be transported to ranches at great cost. Water makes mould grow in their thick fur which kills them. Shame most of those farms ar gone now and the pampas and forest under soya which creates sterile desert for wildlife. Go and see. Go to a suprmarket with an Argentinian polo groom as I hav and watch them go beserk at the tofu section and the soya milk. They will tell you what they think about vegans. Don't try and match them mojito for mojito though in the evening eh? Never again lol!

we have to rty to rappraise what w think about animals. Better we treat them with compassion and understanding but not reject them as resource. It takes 100 years for a tree to grow. Millions for oil to be formed. Takes about five years to create a billion Rabbits from a few breeding pairs. As long as we treat them well the answer to many of our world problems is staring us in the face.

I know Rabbit farms in Eastern Europe. A friend got a Rabbit at one as a companion to a horse who didn't like other horses. So he took me thre. I was partly for range. Good conditions. Rabbits grromed. Then they are sheared for four years and the fur usd in the hat industry which is a important part of the czech economy. Used to be booming until everyone started wearing basball caps instad of trilbies. Philip Tracey uses the production there I am told. Anyway when they are about 5 years old they are culled...quickly, painlessly and without the nonsense you probably imagin. Thn thir fur is usd for fur coats, usually sheared for a smooth ffct, and the meat used by humans. Most Czech restaurants have started srving Rabbit again as deand increass with the fur rvival. In Czech they have "nature" restaurants. If you ask for a vegetarian restaurant you will probbaly be guided to one as they think you mean organic or free range and wild game. Thing is most Brits just go on the oeoeoeoe in Prague and never step out of it to see the fantstic countryside. Slovakia is 80% forest and hunting is one of the main economic activities, Long may it remain so. I discovrd a bear in Switzerland about tn years ago and nobody would believe me. In the Engardine. My camera had one shot left and it was a bit of a blur. They suggested it was a large Badger . Two years ago, it is confirmed bear have returned. Incidentally I have also seen raccoon there. They wouldn't have that till recently either.The Bear have come from Slovakia and Italy through the Alps. In Slovakia they have bear and colossal Wild Boar . Incidentally, the Fox remains extinct virtually in Czech: that was the legacy of The Nazis ban on foxhunting with hounds in the former Czechoslovakia. Good for the Rabbits though I guess. Some reformed Hunts there are trying to reintroduce the Fox.
And remember the countryside in most of Czech revolves like Ireland Wales and England and Brittany around the sport of steplchasing; often another target for the animal rights folk. One Czech trainer and owner were able to buy land destined for develpment for his horses after a few of them won over a million pounds in prizemoney in Italy at Merano. That land will now contiue to support a thriving bio diversity.

I just hope some of this is useful in helping people reappraise what is good in the long run for animals. Small eco footprints. And hunters make the smallest.
I hope programmes like Tribe and Meet the natives begin to teach the british public about these new ideas we are learning from hunters. Nobody ever believed me and David Bellamy, Prince Charles and Roger Daltrey

[The Woodman]

I'll have to get up earlier tomorrow Currehound if all your posts are going to be that long! You have some interesting veiws.

[CurreHound]

Sorry I don't always get time so as I joined the forum I thought I'd put a bit of effort into explaining my position. Then I can link people back here if they assume I am a nasty old farmer or hunter or something; and be much more brief.
If anyone would like evidence from anything I have raised I have it available; but that would make it longer so I will take specific challenges if anyone is in any doubt. For example my claim that the WWF have moved to a position that hunting works for conservation in many of their own test areas; or I can refer you to objective fur farm welfare reports, or detailed studies into British hunting being the most effective habitat conservation. I also have some shocking indictments of the way certain BIG animal charities act including prosecutions for comissioning "snuff" movies especially re marine mammals. I also have contact with and evidence from native peoples and conservation experts all all around the globe. The UK is a bit stuck in the 90s on conservation ideas; and many of our beliefs are based on urban alienation from nature, AR propaganda and misinformation. These are not things that can be discussed in a few lines.

[Billy Wobble Dagger]

Welcome CurreHound. Some very interesting points, many which I'll admit I have never thought of. Certainly the cessation of the fur trade in the UK has caused many problems for our own wildlife. I do a lot of volunteering with my local Water Vole project and so I'm acutely aware of the damage that the American Mink are doing to our river wildlife.

I hope you stick around WAB, I think your views will enlighten a lot of the members.

Oh and you win the prize for longest first post

BWD

[peppermint]

Hi, welcome to wab. Your posts so far are very interesting to read, and like Billy said, there are quite a few points i had not thought about before which are cetainly worth reflecting upon.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[ron1863]

Hello and welcome to WAB.

Your post will cause a lot of debate in the forum but I imagine that all WAB members have our wildlife's best interest at heart, though some have very different ideas and thoughts than others.
I personally am all for the reintroduction of animals that were wiped out mainly by man, such as the Beaver, boar and wolf to Scotland but I imagine many members don't.

[juliejam]

Hi I first read your post introducing yourself to the forum early this morning...for me it was a bit heavy and in your face at that time...So I would like to say now ...HI ther and welcome to WAB...there are lots of different interests and opinions here and Im sure your going to have lots of fun ....

Julie

[naturelover]

hi and welcome to wab.

[CurreHound]

Thankyou for the welcome and the time you have spent to read my posts.
Some popl hre will dismiss what I have to say and assume me a farmer or hunter (I am not) but if they do they perpetuate real damage to wildlife that will be permanent.
As for reintrioduction of wolf Beaver etc I would like to see it. But be prepared.
also remember we already have reintroduced big cats and they have very little impact on domestic stock but a lot of peoples dogs go missing in the woods. Try looking up a tree a few days later.

Beaver flood land.
Are we prepared for that?
personally I favour the Cree method of Beaver management.
Did you know it is impossible to farm Beaver yet Beaver are used by the fur trad to create fabulous sleek sheared fur?
Th cr will come and rhome baver in their land from areas they are considered a pest, using love traps. They are then re relased into their hunting grounds and allowd to bred and dam. If Beavers can't dam they do not breed. And damming floods large areas.

Usually this is why they are not tolratd by man. It is a lie that they were over hnted for fur. Logging destoyed their dams and habitat, and killing them because they are a nuisance was the other reason in many parts of urban Canada.
In the areas they were trappnd and hunted for fur they still thrived.

Incidntally, those of you who may object to fur because it is "unecessary" may also want to consider this. My g/f has managed to live without meat since the age of ten. Meat is not necessary either. So it is not valid to say that . But this may also surprise you. The meat of Beaver is fantastic, and eaten.
These pople who sell Beaver pelts to the fur trade that we reject, have given their land over to them so thy thrive. Would we be prepared to do the same?
I think not. Wait till the first business estate or homes get flooded.

Persnally I would love to see Beaver and wolf in the UK. And hope the lynx leopard and puma populations continue to grow. Problem is that urban people have a frilly if they think there is a puma about. And with good reason. One of the problems of re relasing big cats into the wild is they have been raised by man and have no fear of him. And will us him as a food source. That doesn't bother me.
However I am also quite happy that the Sami will hunt lynx and wish to sell the fur as they are so common up to 30 000 reindeer are killed each year by them. Though now I believe they are paid instead just to confirm a lynx sighting.

Let us have these animals, but be prepared to manage them.
The rural places are not a theme park; and if they become so the future of animals is bleak.

Cheetah for example are highly endangered in "conservation" parks but thrive under managment of leopards and lions. Everything is about balance.

[mh68]

Your mention of big cats in the uk is interesting Currehound....I take it you support the theory that theyre breeding in the uk now?

BTW, your E key appears to be stuck -aren`t keyboards great!!

Mark H

[CurreHound]

Yes e's always go first on keyboards! I have an old recycled computer. Apologies! Also I have major issues with spellcheckers because words like Hedgehog are never in them! So I boycott them!

It isn't a theory re the cats. And what is more the authorities are covering it up, and even taking them out when reported. So we don't report it.

A Hunt a few years ago on the quantox had a Lynx up a tree and it took a long time to pull the hounds off. The lynx made a bit of a mess of them.They will also attack dogs. The Lynx was let be.

I have seen large black cats often. They spook the horses when in the forest.

this is near us and no surprise:
BBC News | WALES | Hunt still on for 'panther' attacker

But when I had my first sighting I rang up the Council and forestry and realised their intentions were hostile. Mind, at first they said "don't be daft...they can't be there.. what would they eat?" When I told them about the wild goats and Red Deer they also didn't believe me. There is a lot more there than people think. If you are on a horse, you can get quite close to wildlife: ride among deer etc. see a lot more. They are not scared of humans when you are on a horse. Horses can sweat a lot when there is a big cat about though they...and in fact you...can smell them.

A report that police had darted two juvenile Black Leopards in Newport for example was later denied; but peopl esaw it happen, and they don't think they were darted.

how they are there I do not know.
I would imagine people who had them as pets or circus handlers could not bear to kill them when it was banned so released them in forest.

[mh68]

Thanks for the reply. Your mention of them being covered up made me think of the incident in the link below....

Big Cat knocked down and killed

Mark H

[CurreHound]

Yes. These animals are out there and they kill dogs. Maybe children. Lynx can be a menace to livestock but other cats prefer dogs and kids.
Now do you get why they are covering it up?

Though there may be other unknown reasons. We found a dead ocelot on the way to the races years ago and I was later told it was a Bengal. We have a bengal I know the difference. Not remotely possible to confuse the two.

Maybe its just because that exotics law backfired badly on them and they don't want us to know.

Look I know a policeman who swears he was involved in a cover up after an urban Fox had killed a baby in a garden. He was under strict instructions not to tell anyone. Early press reports were crushed. So maybe something like that has happened. Happened all the time in West Africa on coffee plantations until they exterminated most of them. People soon lose interest and empathy with animals when they realise they aren't so cuddly.

There is also the possibiliy of some "rural fundamantalist" conservation or hunting group releasing them. There was also the possibility at one time being discussed of using domstciated lynx etc to hunt foxes. Maybe that went bluetits up if someone importing them got tipped off about a raid. Eagles are a safer option legally!

Don't mind; its nice to have them there whatever. Not so nice for the dog owner though.

[mh68]

Yes, theres no doubt why they would cover up.Re your mention of hunting groups releasing them...wasnt there a case a while back of a Lynx being discovered in captivity which had been imported for hunting?
The main argument against the subject of Uk big cats seems to be lack of genuine photographic evidence, especially considering how many people are out in remote places photographing wildlife these days.Do you think this ties in with your suggestion that a lot of sightings arent reported for fear of the animals being destroyed? I know in similar circumstances I would be reluctant to officially report a sighting for those reasons....and any images I took would be kept to myself for the same reasons..

Mark H

[Deer Stalker]

Hi Currehound.