Unknown scat

[kmw350]

Hi, has anybody any idea what this was produced by? Found in the grass in my orchard this afternoon. It's about 2 and a half inches long, maybe 65mm, no hairs or seeds that I could see, and not much of an odour, and quite a soft consistency. I'm on the Shropshire/Wales border, and have only lived here a few months. We obviously have a regular badger, as there are various snuffle holes including a couple of wasp nests dug out, which I'm grateful to him for. We also have regular Buzzards overhead, but I'm not sure they would produce this size waste? I know badgers normally use latrines, but it seems too big for anything else. It does not seem right for a fox, and I haven't seen or heard evidence of foxes since moving in.
I'd be really interested to know what it is, any thoughts anyone?

Cheers
Keith

[valleyforge]

Hi kmw350 and welcome to the WAB forum

The mixture of dark faecal matter mixed with what appear to be lighter coloured urates, would perhaps tend to be more consistent with what are normally bird droppings, than that which is normally produced by a mammal (but it would depend a lot on what has been consumed).

The amorphous texture of the faecal matter might be consistent with a bird that had been feeding mainly on earthworms perhaps ... so that certainly wouldn't rule out a buzzard ... and size-wize it's about right.

But it could be from a gull, or any large-ish farmland bird too.

[kmw350]

Thanks for the reply, I hadn't thought of Crows, ravens and the like. I'm no expert but I think you are right in the possibility of it being a bird. I will have to keep a quiet eye out and see what visits,

Keith

[Dogghound]

Buzzard droppings are very watery and consist mostly of urine. This looks more like a woodpigeon.

[kmw350]

Thanks Doghound, we certainly have several of them around, but isnt it a bit too big for a Woodpigeon?

[valleyforge]

Originally Posted by Dogghound

Buzzard droppings are very watery and consist mostly of urine.

Sorry to disagree, but that's not the case in healthy buzzards ... if you have encountered buzzards producing watery droppings due to an abnormal amount of urine (polyuria), then that might indicate a number of underlying problems, but a common cause in raptors is due to lead poisoning, normally caused by ingesting shotgun pellets from the carrion of gamebirds or pigeons.

Originally Posted by Dogghound

This looks more like a woodpigeon.

Not really ... healthy wood pigeon droppings are invariably green (faecal matter), marbled with white (urates).

[Dogghound]

Originally Posted by valleyforge

Sorry to disagree, but that's not the case in healthy buzzards ... if you have encountered buzzards producing watery droppings due to an abnormal amount of urine (polyuria), then that might indicate a number of underlying problems, but a common cause in raptors is due to lead poisoning, normally caused by ingesting shotgun pellets from the carrion of gamebirds or pigeons.

Have you seen bird of prey droppings? Im very puzzled by your response, because if you have you would relise they are like watery paint. Buzzard droppings are almost like liquid comprising of urine (uric acid). If you visit a nest site, roost site or feeding site you will see the ground below is white(often a ring around the tree), or if you see a peregrine nest on a ledge the ledge is white, or if you flush a barn owl it often squirts out a watery dropping. They discharge it by pointing their rear into the air and spraying in out backwards. Most dark matter like fiber, carbs etc is released in the pellet they produce, so you dont get as much of a dark matrix as you get in passerine, pigeon, duck etc droppings. I have never seen a raptor dropping after lead ingestion, but have handled and watched enough raptors to know their droppings are like liquid and not like the one in the OP. Most literature will also back this up!

Originally Posted by valleyforge

Not really ... healthy wood pigeon droppings are invariably green (faecal matter), marbled with white (urates).

Not sure if "the not really" is supposed to be sarcasm or not

Wood pigeon droppings can range from green to black and are similar to the one pictured in the OP. The consist largely of faecal matter (the dark matrix) and white urine as you describe. They also turn darker with age and as they desiccate. Your suggestion of corvid or gull is inaccurate as these are like raptors in the sense that they produce very watery droppings dominated by urates. This means its not a raptor or owl, not a passerine, not a duck/goose, not a gull, heron or cormorant, not a pheasant or partridge. Which leaves the most reasonable suggestion that its a woodpigeon.

[valleyforge]

Lighten up, Dogghound .... we are just discussing xexexexe after all.

Originally Posted by Dogghound

Have you seen bird of prey droppings?

We don't keep raptors here at the refuge now much beyond the point of triage and first aid, simply because there are other specialist groups in our region where they are better suited; and that allows us to keep our larger aviaries for species that can happily coexist communally. But we have had buzzards and tawny owls that have stayed for around a week or so, before being transferred, and again for sometimes a similar time, whilst awaiting a suitable weather-window for release back on their home range.

So, plenty of time to get acquainted with what they excrete ... because I have to clean it up. Visual examination of bird droppings however, is also a good way for us of gauging what may be going-on internally.

Originally Posted by Dogghound

Buzzard droppings are almost like liquid comprising of urine (uric acid).

Bird droppings voided from the cloaca are composed of 3 parts: faeces, urates and urine. Urate (uric acid) is a crystalline substance, very slightly soluble in water and white in its normal state ... it's not the same thing as urine.

Birds on high-protein diets, such as raptors, produce a much larger urate proportion than do seed-eating passerine birds, for instance. The consistency/viscoscity of the urate can vary for a number of reasons (amount of water taken, climate, pregnancy, etc.), but under normal circumstances it should be creamy (i.e. resembling cream), not watery (i.e. resembling water).

Originally Posted by Dogghound

If you visit a nest site, roost site or feeding site you will see the ground below is white(often a ring around the tree), or if you see a peregrine nest on a ledge the ledge is white, or if you flush a barn owl it often squirts out a watery dropping. They discharge it by pointing their rear into the air and spraying in out backwards.

I agree with your observations ... this is called 'splicing', and it's how the bird typically discharges waste when it's on a high perch, or in flight. Birds on the ground however, use a lot less discharge energy, to avoid the 'splatter-factor' ... and because they are just going to walk away from it.

Originally Posted by Dogghound

Most dark matter like fiber, carbs etc is released in the pellet they produce, so you dont get as much of a dark matrix as you get in passerine, pigeon, duck etc droppings. I have never seen a raptor dropping after lead ingestion, but have handled and watched enough raptors to know their droppings are like liquid and not like the one in the OP. Most literature will also back this up!

Only indigestible matter ... typically, fur, feather and bones ... get coughed back up from the gizzard as a pellet, so it's not correct to assume that no faecal matter is produced by raptors. I did say that the pictured dropping was consistent with what might be produced by a bird that had consumed a quantity of earthworms ... and didn't rule out buzzards because of that. What kind of pellet do you imagine a buzzard might produce after feasting on worms?

In all cases, what comes out of a bird is largely determined by what goes in ... so even if it doesn't make that clear in your literature, it should be reasonably obvious. Bird droppings vary according to diet ... size, form, consistency, smell, stickiness, etc., and not least according to the health of the individual.

Originally Posted by Dogghound

Not sure if "the not really" is supposed to be sarcasm or not

I'm not really sure why you would have assumed that was sarcastic ... I meant no more than the picture depicted something that wasn't really typical of a wood pigeon dropping, neither in colour or in size.

[Dogghound]

Originally Posted by valleyforge

Birds on high-protein diets, such as raptors, produce a much larger urate proportion than do seed-eating passerine birds, for instance. The consistency/viscoscity of the urate can vary for a number of reasons (amount of water taken, climate, pregnancy, etc.), but under normal circumstances it should be creamy (i.e. resembling cream), not watery (i.e. resembling water).

This is where I may not have been clear or you may have misunderstood me. When I said watery I did not mean it as in clear liquid but as in a runny liquid with low viscosity. Which may explain the confusion here? I agree its like cream or paint.

Originally Posted by valleyforge

Only indigestible matter ... typically, fur, feather and bones ... get coughed back up from the gizzard as a pellet, so it's not correct to assume that no faecal matter is produced by raptors. I did say that the pictured dropping was consistent with what might be produced by a bird that had consumed a quantity of earthworms ... and didn't rule out buzzards because of that.

I didnt say they have no faecal matter.

Birds which eat large amounts of earthworms have hardly any faecal matter as the soft tissue is largely digested and consists largely of liquid. You only have to look at wader droppings to see this. The dropping in the photo looks like it contains vegetable/seed matter rather than invertebrate.

Originally Posted by valleyforge

What kind of pellet do you imagine a buzzard might produce after feasting on worms?

One which is largely made up of grit. They produce a wader like ovoid pellet which looks like sand, this is due to it consisting of the worms stomach content, but its usually uncommon for them to only feed on earthworms over a long enough period to produce a pellet solely made up of this. Buzzards usually produce pellets which contain fur and bone but if the individual has been feeding on worms you get a lot of grit in the matrix of hair too. It is often seen more in little owls, as well as elytra etc.

Originally Posted by valleyforge

In all cases, what comes out of a bird is largely determined by what goes in ... so even if it doesn't make that clear in your literature, it should be reasonably obvious. Bird droppings vary according to diet ... size, form, consistency, smell, stickiness, etc., and not least according to the health of the individual.

I dont disagree and its not "MY" literature its the general consensus.

[valleyforge]

OK Dogghound ... from a photograph it's only ever going to be a matter of some conjecture as to what it's composed of, or 'who done it'.

At least we're both in agreement that it was a bird (allegedly) of some sort.

Besides, I've got more than enough of the stuff to have to clear up this evening, without wanting to write about it anymore.