Ancient woodland indicators

[Deb London]

Simple question. I have repeatedly read that ancient woodland indicators can be lichens and inverts, but I can only find lists of vascular plants. Does anyone know of other lists, references etc that deal with these groups?

Thanks.

[Fuzzy-felt bloke]

This will give you a start

Ancient Tree Forum

There are a lot of scientific reports, would these be of interest to you?

I'm a bit busy today but will proved links later if interested.

Fuzz-Felt Bloke

[Deb London]

Hi FFB,

Thanks very much. I'll read that link with interest. I would be very interested in scientific reports and any other references.

Thanks again!

Deb

[Fauna]

I don't think there is a list for invert indicator species (if there is i would be interested to)

I suppose the problem with inverts is that many will be resricted in their range. There are probably few true old woodland species widespread enough throughout Britians woodlands to compile an easy list of indicators?

Take these few examples of old woodland species...

Malacolimax tenellus...i suppose this species could be used as an indicator. Which i'm lucky to have a few 100 yards away from my house.

Survey of Malacolimax tenellus in the U.K.

NBN Gateway: Slender Slug (Malacolimax tenellus) grid map


Violet Click Beetle.

Limoniscus violaceus (violet click-beetle) | Natural History Museum

NBN Gateway: Violet Click Beetle (Limoniscus violaceus) grid map


Phenacolimax major.

The status of Phenacolimax major in the U.K.

NBN Gateway: Greater Pellucid Glass Snail (Phenacolimax major) grid map

Regards Chris...

[JennyS]

The link below is to the 'Publications' page of the British Lichen Society's website, scroll down to the bottom and you will see (2002) Indices of Ecological Continuity by Sandy Coppins . Click the link for a down-loadable Word document.
The British Lichen Society - Available BLS Publications

There are different indexes for different parts of the country but, be aware it isn't simple reading, particularly if you have no experience of lichens!
You will also find some information that is relevant to your 'Ivy and woodland management' thread.

Many of the rare and protected lichens are small crustose species that most people would never ever notice .......... these require expert identification.
However there are some of the larger foliose (leaf-like) species that indicate a 'good' wood and they include Sticta's, some Leptogiums, Lobaria's and Nephroma's.

Some of these species are shown here: Irish Lichens - Western oceanic lichens

If you are seriously interested the BLS website has a list of local contacts and I suggest you get in touch with someone in your area.
The British Lichen Society - Regional and Specialist Referees

[Paul mabbott]

The invertebrate literature contains all sorts of studies but they tend to be patchy. Lots on saproxylic beetles, for instance and, I suspect that a summary has been published but I don't remember where at the moment.
Plants, fungi, lichens are easier because they're visible most of the year and don't need complex sampling techniques!
Very few beetles are, as it were, definitive of ancient woodland - some of the saproxylic species are found in woodlad proper but also old parkland which, after all, is often woodland remnant. Lots of ground beetles are found mainly in semi-natural woodland but not exclusively so using them as indicators is a statistical matter ....

[Deb London]

Thanks very much folks. Lots of really, really interesting (imho) stuff here.

[RKB]

Ancient woodland doesn't necessarily mean that the trees are ancient, just that the rootstock is, and that the land has not been farmed. So it's perfectly possible (and not uncommon) for ancient woodlands to consist of tree stems that are only about 100 years old because they were clear-felled in the Great War. So a lot of species would have been eradicated along with the standing trees. That's why it's vascular plants that are the best indicators, because they have the best continuity through seeds and rootstock than any other group - they are less prone to changes in above ground vegetation structure in the way that e.g. butterflies are. If one thinks of an ancient woodland that is clear-felled, then the White Admirals and Fritillaries will probably go extinct, whereas the Wood Anemone and Dogs Mercury will survive.

By the same token, you can have a planted woodland that is only 200 years old that could have an assemblage of birds and insects that might be more 'ancient' than some true ancient woodlands, because they are responding to tree stage and not the landscape history.

[Deb London]

Very interesting RKB. A thorough explanation as to why many people use vascular plants as indicators. I had read this but didn't fully appreciate why.

I wanted to know of other indicators as background to a report I was reading. It's a topic that I can really get immersed in.