Go Back   Wild About Britain > British Wildlife > General Wildlife

» April 2018

S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24 25 26 27 28
29 30 12345

» Stats

Members: 59,017
Threads: 110,099
Posts: 1,075,853
Top Poster: aeshna5 (20,836)
Welcome to our newest member, judes

View Poll Results: How do you feel about the proposed sell off of forests?

Very concerned 49 66.22%
Concerned 17 22.97%
No opinion / undecided 2 2.70%
Relaxed 5 6.76%
Very relaxed 1 1.35%
Voters: 74. You may not vote on this poll

Reply

 

LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #171 (permalink)  
Old 29-01-2011, 09:32 PM
RobSutton's Avatar
Commander of the Wild Empire
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Yorkshire Dales
Posts: 2,689
Blog Entries: 3
Re: Forest sell-off

For those who get lost in the guesswork calculations peppering posts above this is part of the analysis by John Vidal - again from the Environment Section of the Guardian Website - which raises some basic points that should be of concern to us.

Quote:
What happens to the 25% of Forestry Commission England land that is not wooded?

No mention is made in the consultation document of what will happen to the large tracts of heath and bogland, limestone pavements, quarries and 560 buildings that the Commission owns in England.

Will the government save money after the disposal?

No one knows. It will have to subsidise the heritage forests, and pay grants for community forests. It will have greatly reduced income from sales of wood at the Forestry Commission. It may have to pay more for woodland grants to private companies and it could lose money if wealthy people buy forests for tax avoidance.

Will the new owners be obliged to manage the forests with consideration of future climate change, plant health, wildlife, biosecurity, forest services, flood control or any other long-term societal benefit?

No. The slimmed down Commission will advise owners on plant health, biosecurity and research, but the consultation document suggests it will have no power to make people plant or fell anything, or to do anything other than what they want.
10 million seems to me a small amount for the services the Forestry Commission performs on our behalf after all it could be covered easily by the bonuses from a couple of bankers, half of the latest signing fee for a footballer, the individual wealth of a single cabinet minister........

Last weekends YouGov poll had 84% opposed to the idea - what's happened to the idea of listening to the people and the "big society"?
__________________
Rob
More photographs at my Website
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #172 (permalink)  
Old 29-01-2011, 10:09 PM
RKB RKB is offline
Commander of the Wild Empire
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,667
Re: Forest sell-off

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobSutton View Post
but the consultation document suggests it will have no power to make people plant or fell anything, or to do anything other than what they want.
That is bull. They will be able to do what they want in the same way that the owner of a field can do what they want, i.e. not a lot without permits, planning consent or permission. If the wood (or limestone pavement etc) is an SSSI or achaeological site, they have an extra layer of constriction. They can also be compelled to control disease or ease flooding under current laws.

As the bandwagon of misinformation is hurtling along apace, it's worth pointing out at every opportunity that 9 out of 10 woods will not be affected at all, and virtually all the woods under discussion are planted conifer commercial timber plantations.

It's only worth listening to people if they are well-informed and not just giving an opinion on something that they either don't understand or have been misled about (by 38 Degrees or, apparently, the Guardian). If we took a YouGov poll asking people how to reduce the deficit, then we'd probably get 84% of people giving us a useless opinion on something else too. That doesn't make them economists, just as asking them about woods doesn't make them ecologists or foresters.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #173 (permalink)  
Old 30-01-2011, 03:26 AM
Commander of the Wild Empire
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Near Scarborough
Posts: 2,223
Re: Forest sell-off

Quote:
Originally Posted by eeyore View Post
yeah but the state owned asset which is for sale does not benefit all of us - it is essential comercial forestry poorly carried out and a waste of tax payers money.
Why does it not benefit us all? We all have access to it. If we choose not too, then we only have ourselves to blame.

It can hardly be described as commercial forestry poorly carried out. Quote from Oliver Rackham in his 2006 'Woodlands' book "Those who expect me to predict the next 40 years should ask whether in 1966 anyone could have predicted the state of woodland by 2006. Who would have predicted .... that the Forestry Commission would be leading the way in recovering replanted woods."
Maybe you are also unaware that the Forest Design Plan for the North York Moors FC woodlands and National Park was commissioned by the FC and North York Moors National park from no less than G.F. Peterken, who is probably the top woodland ecologist in the country.

And this quote from the "The Forestry Commission and the sale of public forests in England Standard Note:SN/SC/5734"
"The economic evaluation of the Public Forest Estate set out the ‘defining characteristics’ of Forestry Commission woodland. This concluded that the PFE delivers multiple benefits such as recreation and biodiversity protection, in contrast to some non-Forestry Commission woodlands:

managed for multiple objectives (including timber, recreation and biodiversity conservation motives). This is in contrast to some non-FC woodlands many of which are under very little management, although many other forest owners do manage under multiple objectives;

covered by long-term Forest Design Plans developed through a multifactorial consideration of the potential for public benefit and wide ranging consultation;

independently certified through the UK Woodland Assurance Standard (UKWAS). UKWAS is a voluntary audit protocol that gives access to the international certification schemes. All of the PFE in England is currently certified to the FSC (Forest Stewardship Council) certification scheme. For non-FC woodlands in England, 16% or 139,000ha are similarly certified. This includes all National Trust and Woodland Trust holdings. In all woodland, forest management has to comply with the UK Forestry Standard (the Government standard for sustainable forestry); this is a condition of receiving a licence for the operations, as well as for any grant-aid from the Forestry Commission


The FC got very good timber prices last year, despite the recession in the construction industry in Britain, most of Europe and in the US, because of the good quality of its timber, through its timber management and ongoing research into improving timber production/assessment/harvesting in conjunction with the likes of Building Research Establishment, university departments etc.

And this is where their softwood goes:
For 2009, thousands of green tonnes:
Saw mills 5153
Pulp mills 511
Wood based panels 1009
Fencing 347
Wood fuel 650
Other 160
Roundwood exports 347

Quote:
Originally Posted by eeyore View Post
taken individually that is true of any of the cuts - but the point is to save money from many cuts collectively - and £10M is still a lot of money to find somewhere else (like for example if it were to be slashed off the sssi protection budget)
£10m is peanuts. And they made a saving of c£7m last year, so nearly 50% savings on the previous year. How many government departments have made that level of savings? By contrast the government is squandering large amounts of money in the process of trying to sell off the forests. Think of the time and overheads spent by all those MPs, the time and overheads spent by the civil servants, and ministers working on it, the money that will be spent on the consultation process, the legal fees for drawing up contracts etc etc etc.

As for SSSIs: quote "The PFE includes 67,772 ha of Sites of Special Scientific Interest (SSSIs). Those classified as being in target condition rose from 71% in 2003 to 98% by 2009." So you won't be seeing any of the SSSI protection budget needing to be spent on the FC's SSSIs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eeyore View Post
also these per head calculations that one finds on 38 deg are somewhat disingenuous - there may be 60M people in the uk, but there arent 60M taxpayers
Excludes babies, true, but anyone else who buys anything other than VAT exempt goods is a tax payer.

Last edited by SheffieldLass; 30-01-2011 at 03:28 AM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #174 (permalink)  
Old 30-01-2011, 03:42 AM
Commander of the Wild Empire
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Near Scarborough
Posts: 2,223
Re: Forest sell-off

Quote:
Originally Posted by RKB View Post
No, because it wont necessarily be FC staff doing the work, and the state wont be paying their salaries, their pensions, their 6 weeks a year annual leave, interest-free loans, and their high street shopping vouchers (yup, really - Forestry Commission - Benefits ).
Some of my neighbours are FC workers, and have worked for the FC for decades. I can assure you they are not living the life of riley, driving flash cars etc, but live very modestly indeed. There is a huge difference in the salaries of those few sat in remote offices who are involved with 'policy' and the vast majority who are doing the hands on work in the forests.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #175 (permalink)  
Old 30-01-2011, 07:13 AM
RobSutton's Avatar
Commander of the Wild Empire
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Yorkshire Dales
Posts: 2,689
Blog Entries: 3
Re: Forest sell-off

Quote:
Originally Posted by RKB View Post

As the bandwagon of misinformation is hurtling along apace, it's worth pointing out at every opportunity that 9 out of 10 woods will not be affected at all, and virtually all the woods under discussion are planted conifer commercial timber plantations.
The question is will private companies be willing to undertake the amenity and conservation work that the Forestry Commission is undertaking even in these commercial timber plantations? Places like Kielder Forest, the Gwydir Forest and Coed-y-brenin in North Wales and Gisburn Forest in Bowland are all commercial forests but are still actively managed by the Forestry Commission for recreation and for conservation - they are so much more than commercial timber plantations.

Quote:
It's only worth listening to people if they are well-informed and not just giving an opinion on something that they either don't understand or have been misled about (by 38 Degrees or, apparently, the Guardian). If we took a YouGov poll asking people how to reduce the deficit, then we'd probably get 84% of people giving us a useless opinion on something else too. That doesn't make them economists, just as asking them about woods doesn't make them ecologists or foresters.
The views being reported in places like the Guardian by John Vidal (an award winning environmental journalist) are from very well informed people. People like Lord Clark of Windermere - a former Chair of the Forestry Commssion; the New Forest Association chairman, William Ziegler; Shaun Spiers - CEO of the Campaign to Protect Rural England. I suspect that these people know a damn sight more about the ecology, economics and forest practice than do either you or I. You can't just dismiss all those people who have opposing views as un-informed or mis-led.

Futhermore people are getting annoyed about all this because it isn't just about economics. Why should access to the countryside and conservation and all the benefits those bring be determined purely on a narrow (and many people say flawed) economic basis. Why not add-in to the consideration the value to the nation of all those people who gain something from unfettererd access to forest areas - including all those "commercial" forests you seem to ignore as worthless sitka plantations. Today there will be thousands of people getting physical and psychological value from walking, biking, horseriding, picnicing, birdwatching and probably a few other activities it's best not to mention in those commercial forests.
__________________
Rob
More photographs at my Website
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #176 (permalink)  
Old 30-01-2011, 10:39 AM
Frozen
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Nr Canterbury, Kent
Posts: 1,100
Re: Forest sell-off

Quote:
Originally Posted by STYRBJORN View Post
80.000 hectares out of 256.000 in this tranche will be given FOC to charity. Over and above that area, charities will have to pay market price.

I have to say though that 10M is picayune. 1/6th of a penny per head of population? WELL WOWEE!
What is 10M about Styrbjorn? The sell off will net the government billions! Otherwise they wouldn't have bothered, would they? Councils would have to up council tax by a swingeing amount even to afford a small part of the local area being sold. And on top of that there's the management remember!
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #177 (permalink)  
Old 30-01-2011, 11:05 AM
Commander of the Wild Empire
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,644
Re: Forest sell-off

Meanwhile, back on the ranch, the National Trust is getting seriously involved. May I suggest that the NT is neither ill-informed nor driven by a left-wing agenda?

Ric
__________________
I have decided to live forever - or die trying.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #178 (permalink)  
Old 30-01-2011, 12:47 PM
RKB RKB is offline
Commander of the Wild Empire
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,667
Re: Forest sell-off

Looks here like they're rather looking forward to it, and will be direct beneficiaries

BBC News - National Trust enters English forest sell-off row

The NT getting involved with partner organisations is probably exactly what Spellman was hoping for, so that looks like a very good result to me.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #179 (permalink)  
Old 30-01-2011, 12:58 PM
Commander of the Wild Empire
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,644
Re: Forest sell-off

Quote:
Originally Posted by RKB View Post
Looks here like they're rather looking forward to it, and BBC News - National Trust enters English forest sell-off row

The NT getting involved with partner organisations is probably exactly what Spellman was hoping for, so that looks like a very good result to me.
Absolutely agreed. We will all benefit
__________________
I have decided to live forever - or die trying.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #180 (permalink)  
Old 30-01-2011, 01:00 PM
maccyd82's Avatar
Wild Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 103
Re: Forest sell-off

Forgive me if this has been mentioned on a previous page...

On 27th Jan defra launched thier consultation: Future of the public forest estate.

Consultation: Future of the public forest estate


There are a few meaty documents on the website which Im having a read of now as Im still not sure what my views are on the proposed sell off.

I suggest if you against the sell off as well as signing any petitions you also respond formally to this consultation.

Ta!

Poppy
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply  

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads

Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sell your county. Wild-Woman Wild Places and Geography 96 13-02-2011 09:24 AM
do insects sell Naturenutz Photography Critique and Advice 5 29-07-2009 06:30 AM
Question for those who sell images. mh68 Wildlife Photography 68 03-02-2008 11:35 PM
Epping Forest, Hatfield Forest Leif Fungi Forums 16 31-10-2007 09:21 PM
Where do I sell my Swarovski scope? Newhythebirder General Equipment 7 30-10-2007 05:50 AM

» New Wildlife Posts

Go to first new post Insect dilemma.
Last post by LWC
Today 03:42 PM
0 Replies, 3 Views
Go to first new post Is this a bracket??
Last post by SomeMight
Today 08:01 AM
2 Replies, 40 Views
Go to first new post Insect Of The Day
Last post by Geoff F
Yesterday 06:44 PM
3,223 Replies, 151,061 Views
Go to first new post Bird of the day!
Last post by John
Yesterday 12:56 PM
13,131 Replies, 611,913 Views
Go to first new post Birding 2018 year list.
Last post by John
Yesterday 12:53 PM
32 Replies, 1,740 Views
Go to first new post I am creating a...
Last post by SomeMight
Yesterday 08:31 AM
7 Replies, 894 Views
Go to first new post Whats your weather like...
Last post by Geoff F
18-04-2018 06:32 PM
15,585 Replies, 475,928 Views
Go to first new post Mysterious early visitor
Last post by IanP
18-04-2018 07:46 AM
4 Replies, 274 Views

» New Environment Posts

No Threads to Display.

» New Activity Posts

No Threads to Display.

» New Community Posts

Are we back up and...
Last post by KimL
02-04-2018 07:19 PM
77 Replies, 1,700 Views

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:50 PM.


Copyright Wild About Britain 2009

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 526 527 528 529 530 531 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 540 541 542 543 544 545 546 547 548 549 550 551 552 553 554 555 556 557 558 559 560 561 562 563 564 565 566 567 568 569 570 571 572 573 574 575 576 577 578 579 580 581 582 583 584 585 586 587 588 589 590 591 592 593 594 595 596 597 598 599 600 601 602 603 604 605 606 607 608 609 610 611 612 613 614 615 616 617 618 619 620 621 622 623 624 625 626 627 628 629 630 631 632 633 634 635 636 637 638 639 640 641 642 643 644 645 646 647 648 649 650 651 652 653 654 655 656 657 658 659 660 661 662 663 664 665 666 667 668 669 670 671 672 673 674 675 676 677 678 679 680 681 682 683 684 685 686 687 688 689 690 691 692 693 694 695 696 697 698 699 700 701 702 703 704 705 706 707 708 709 710 711 712 713 714 715 716 717 718 719 720 721 722 723 724 725 726 727 728 729 730 731 732 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 740 741 742 743 744 745 746 747 748 749 750 751 752 753 754 755 756 757 758 759 760 761 762 763 764 765 766 767 768 769 770 771 772 773 774 775 776 777 778 779 780 781 782 783 784 785 786 787 788 789 790 791 792 793 794 795 796 797 798 799 800 801 802 803 804 805 806 807 808 809 810 811 812 813 814 815 816 817 818 819 820 821 822 823 824 825 826 827 828 829 830 831 832 833 834 835 836 837 838 839 840 841 842 843 844 845 846 847 848 849 850 851 852 853 854 855 856 857 858 859 860 861 862 863 864 865 866 867 868 869 870 871 872 873 874 875 876 877 878 879 880 881 882 883 884 885 886 887 888 889 890 891 892 893 894 895 896 897 898 899 900 901 902 903 904 905 906 907 908 909 910 911 912 913 914 915 916 917 918 919 920 921 922 923 924 925 926 927 928 929 930 931 932 933 934 935 936 937 938 939 940 941 942 943 944 945 946 947 948 949 950 951 952 953 954 955 956 957 958 959 960 961 962 963 964 965 966 967 968 969 970 971 972 973 974 975 976 977 978 979 980 981 982 983 984 985 986 987 988 989 990 991 992 993 994 995 996 997 998 999 1000 1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1008 1009 1010 1011 1012 1013 1014 1015 1016 1017 1018 1019 1020 1021 1022 1023 1024 1025 1026 1027 1028 1029 1030 1031 1032 1033 1034 1035 1036 1037 1038 1039 1040 1041 1042 1043 1044 1045 1046 1047 1048 1049 1050 1051 1052 1053 1054 1055 1056 1057 1058 1059 1060 1061 1062 1063 1064 1065 1066 1067 1068 1069 1070 1071 1072 1073 1074 1075 1076 1077 1078 1079 1080 1081 1082 1083 1084 1085 1086 1087 1088 1089 1090 1091 1092 1093 1094 1095 1096 1097 1098 1099 1100 1101 1102 1103 1104 1105 1106 1107 1108 1109 1110 1111 1112 1113 1114 1115 1116 1117 1118 1119 1120 1121 1122 1123 1124 1125 1126 1127 1128 1129 1130 1131 1132 1133 1134 1135 1136 1137 1138 1139 1140 1141 1142 1143 1144 1145 1146 1147 1148 1149 1150 1151 1152 1153 1154 1155 1156 1157 1158 1159 1160 1161 1162 1163 1164 1165 1166 1167 1168 1169 1170 1171 1172 1173 1174 1175 1176 1177 1178 1179 1180 1181 1182 1183 1184 1185 1186 1187 1188 1189 1190 1191 1192 1193 1194 1195 1196 1197 1198 1199 1200 1201 1202 1203 1204 1205 1206 1207 1208 1209 1210 1211 1212 1213 1214 1215 1216 1217 1218 1219 1220 1221 1222 1223 1224 1225 1226 1227 1228 1229 1230 1231 1232 1233 1234 1235 1236 1237 1238 1239 1240 1241 1242 1243 1244 1245 1246 1247 1248 1249 1250 1251 1252 1253 1254 1255 1256 1257 1258 1259 1260 1261 1262 1263 1264 1265 1266 1267 1268 1269 1270 1271 1272 1273 1274 1275 1276 1277 1278 1279 1280 1281 1282 1283 1284 1285 1286 1287 1288 1289 1290 1291 1292 1293 1294 1295 1296 1297 1298 1299 1300 1301 1302 1303 1304 1305 1306 1307 1308 1309 1310 1311 1312 1313 1314 1315 1316 1317 1318 1319 1320 1321 1322 1323 1324 1325 1326 1327 1328 1329 1330 1331 1332 1333 1334 1335 1336 1337 1338 1339 1340 1341 1342 1343 1344 1345 1346 1347 1348 1349 1350 1351 1352 1353 1354 1355 1356 1357 1358 1359 1360 1361 1362 1363 1364 1365 1366 1367 1368 1369 1370 1371 1372 1373 1374 1375 1376 1377 1378 1379 1380 1381 1382 1383 1384 1385 1386 1387 1388 1389 1390 1391 1392 1393 1394 1395 1396 1397 1398 1399 1400 1401 1402 1403 1404 1405 1406 1407 1408 1409 1410 1411 1412 1413 1414 1415 1416 1417 1418 1419 1420 1421 1422 1423 1424 1425 1426 1427 1428 1429 1430 1431 1432 1433 1434 1435 1436 1437 1438 1439 1440 1441 1442 1443 1444 1445 1446 1447 1448 1449 1450 1451 1452 1453 1454