Extinction

[animartco]

Originally Posted by eeyore

Indeed the hyenas dentition is totally different to that of the panda, and they are totally irrelevant to the topic at hand - the fact that some carnivores have strong jaw muscles hardly changes the fact that pandas are evolved to eat bamboo or that some herbivores have canines - or that some people have no idea what they are talking about and think that throwing in irrelevant factoids will mask this.

Wrong Eeyore. The panda and the Hyena have quite a similar dentition as against any vegetarian animal like a cow or a rabbit. The reason the panda is dying out is because it has a diet for which it was not evolved. The other thing that goes a long way towards proving it was a carnivore (or meat eating omnivore) is the stereoscopic forward vison.

[animartco]

'Born free' myth again Brenda. Animals in good zoos are quite happy! Would you rather be living out in the wilds with a dangerous predator round every corner, and droughts causing starvation, and diseases, and flies that bite so much that sometimes you run mad from them; or in a lovely safe enclosure with all your needs provided for, and nothing to do but watch the world go by and play with the interesting toys that are regularly provided? The wild is NOT a paradise. It is nature red in tooth and claw. Of course we should try to keep them alive! At some time in the dim and distant future when mankind has learned to control its greed and therefore its population there may again be wild places that they could be trained to go back to.

[animartco]

Originally Posted by posie

Yes, I agree with the above, but it's a bit risky getting too deep into it on here because it could be classed as discussing religion....However.....

I think that many people have narrow 'vision' and only think about what they need and want, and how to get it, regardless of what harm it might cause in the 'bigger picture'. because of the gradual development of this self ish ness the amount of harm caused now cannot be absorbed by the natural world/planet, so our awareness to the situation has been aroused by the fear of what it will mean to us. However in putting things right 'for ourselves' will hopefully also put things right for the planet as a whole. I know the previous sentence tends to seperate us from the rest of nature, but after all, it is humans doing all the damage, not anything else, that is what seperates us....

Posie

Hear hear Posie and Deb. Couldn't agree more.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by animartco

The reason the panda is dying out is because it has a diet for which it was not evolved. The other thing that goes a long way towards proving it was a carnivore (or meat eating omnivore) is the stereoscopic forward vison.

rubbish - the pandas morphology and dentinion demonstrates that it is evolved to eat bamboo, yet again you have taken absolutely no notice of the facts because your own predjudices are shouting too loud

the reason the panda is in trouble is habitat destruction pure and simple , it is evolved to eat a very specific diet, and that diet is being taken away - if indeed it was a ravenning carnivore it would not be sucjh dire straits as it would have a diverse range of food sources

numerous herbivores also have stereoscopic forward vision - they use it to find food, find mates, and escape predators

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by STYRBJORN

And what precisely does panda dentition have to do with species extinction? I only because I'd like to know.

Because antimarco is arguing that the reason pandas are going extinct is because they used to eat people but then people discovered fire - which is absolutely ridiculous on many levels, but the dention demonstrates that it is abslolute and total rubbish that they are not evolved to eat bamboo

Originally Posted by STYRBJORN

Oh just for the record, it is not "obvious that early mammals were omnivores". They were insectivores. Get yer facts right.

Ric

I dont recall saying that they were ?

[STYRBJORN]

[quote=eeyore;664781]Because antimarco is arguing that the reason pandas are going extinct is because they used to eat people but then people discovered fire - which is absolutely ridiculous on many levels, but the dention demonstrates that it is abslolute and total rubbish that they are not evolved to eat bamboo



I dont recall saying that they were ?[/QUOTE]

You didn't. One of our more woolly minded colleagues I fear. No names no pack-drill but you know who you are Animartco. Whoops.

Ric

[SpikyPhasmid]

Wait a minute!
Evolution involves change over time. This can involve a change in diet. Look at Darwin's finches. Even if Pandas HAD been evolved as predators, that does not make them fixed forever as such until the very end of time.

[John_M]

Originally Posted by animartco

Wrong Eeyore. The panda and the Hyena have quite a similar dentition as against any vegetarian animal like a cow or a rabbit. The reason the panda is dying out is because it has a diet for which it was not evolved. The other thing that goes a long way towards proving it was a carnivore (or meat eating omnivore) is the stereoscopic forward vison.

Are you saying that numerous species of herbivorous monkeys actually evolved as carnivores because they have stereoscopic vision? I suppose their long tails evolved to strangle their prey?

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by posie

Yes, I agree with the above, but it's a bit risky getting too deep into it on here because it could be classed as discussing religion....However.....

I think that many people have narrow 'vision' and only think about what they need and want, and how to get it, regardless of what harm it might cause in the 'bigger picture'. because of the gradual development of this self ish ness the amount of harm caused now cannot be absorbed by the natural world/planet, so our awareness to the situation has been aroused by the fear of what it will mean to us. However in putting things right 'for ourselves' will hopefully also put things right for the planet as a whole. I know the previous sentence tends to seperate us from the rest of nature, but after all, it is humans doing all the damage, not anything else, that is what seperates us....

Posie

Sadly I think people are on the whole too stupid to rectify the mess we are in/ heading towards.

The people with the big power are too interested in money, being admired/ considered successful or simply too busy firefighting todays problems to make the big changes and the small people would still destroy the last piece of wild habitat or the last tiger if it meant that they could stop their children/ parents/ villagers from dying of starvation (and could you really blame them?).

Sigh.... You have to focus on the fact that on a geological timescale none of it matters, the earth will heal itself once we've destroyed most of ourselves/ moved on to wreck other planets.....

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by animartco

'Born free' myth again Brenda. Animals in good zoos are quite happy! Would you rather be living out in the wilds with a dangerous predator round every corner, and droughts causing starvation, and diseases, and flies that bite so much that sometimes you run mad from them; or in a lovely safe enclosure with all your needs provided for, and nothing to do but watch the world go by and play with the interesting toys that are regularly provided? The wild is NOT a paradise. It is nature red in tooth and claw. Of course we should try to keep them alive! At some time in the dim and distant future when mankind has learned to control its greed and therefore its population there may again be wild places that they could be trained to go back to.

You've obviously not seens as many animals with deadened glassy eyes silently rocking or pacing animals in zoos as I have.

Even my cats get sad if I keep them in too long, even though I provide food, company, toys etc they still really badly want to go out even though its dangerous.