hare coursing

[Kayleigh]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Your wrong Kayleigh . . . ALL travellers are above the law!

Travellers usually take part in 'best of three' hare coursing whereby a single dog is used to course the hare, whereas in competitive coursing, under Coursing Club rules (as per the Waterloo Cup), two dogs were run. Ironically, the former is, in my opinion, less cruel. Even in competitive coursing hares rarely got 'torn apart', but there was always a risk of it happening for the simple reason that two dogs were used. When one dog is used the lurcher/longdog/greyhound kills the hare relatively quickly, it isn't in the dog's interest not to as hares can kick like hell.

I was a member of the Coursing Club for some years and attended many Waterloo Cups. If I'm honest I stopped going because I realised the risk of a hare being torn apart was always there, though I personally never saw it happen. If one dog managed to catch the hare the other dog would sometimes get hold before the first dog had a chance to kill it. Generally, a steward would be close at hand to despatch the hare (they lined the coursing field on either side, around 30yds apart).

I'm not trying to defend coursing, though, personally, I don't find a dog killing a hare any more cruel than a fox killing one, and far less cruel than traditional hare drives - if hares need controlling (and they sometimes do). Also, there are absolutely sound reasons why a coursed hare population is fitter and healthier than one that is controlled by shooting, I can explain if anyone's interested . . . actually, reading that last paragraph back, maybe I am trying to defend coursing!

What I wouldn't try to defend is the gangs of coursers who are now placing huge bets on the outcome of best of three matches. To be honest, this has always gone on, even when coursing was legal. In fact coursing grounds throughout Britain were plagued by gangs poaching the area simply because there were so many hares! These guys are a far cry from the local poacher who used to take a hare or two with lurchers for the pot. I've tried to reason with them when I've caught them on local farms - I've even had my own lurchers in the back of the van! All to no avail. If you threaten to phone the police they threaten to burn down the farmer's barns. I've actually been told by a couple of farmers to just leave them to it as it's simply not worth the hassle. I've been threatened personally and they've threatened to take my dogs off me (I've seen travellers turf unwanted lurchers out of their vehicles on the M6 - why would anyone do that?).

I haven't hunted for some years now, though I was obsessed by hunting at one time. I don't even own a lurcher these days, my last one died at the age of seventeen a couple of years ago. Hope I've not offended anyone, I've just tried to be honest and give some background information.

One other point - most of what Alan K suggested is highly inaccurate, and I'm not sure, as a protestor, how he managed to reach some of the conclusions he did. Protestors at the Waterloo Cup were not there all day. They were marched from their coach (and it usually was only one coach) with a police escort, they stood at the end of the coursing field, several hundred yards away from the supporters, hurled abuse at us for twenty minutes, then got on their coach and went home.

Very interesting and enlightening post Jonathan but I cant go with the tar all with same brush attitude so will stand by my SOME..

[Picidae]

Worth bearing in mind some travellers/gypsies often don't treat their dogs any better than the animals that are hunted imo - A tale you might like to hear: (sorry Kayleigh if it's too off thread for you!)

Years ago, while waiting at a coach station for a bus late one rainy Feb evening, I entered the waiting room where two people were already there sheltering from the rain. A third person, homeless/traveller, had two dogs tied to each other by a short piece of rope. The first dog, a fit looking black Lab cross, was dragging round a thin beraggled young white Lurcher on the end of a bit of rope that was round the Lab and the Lurcher's neck. The Lurcher was weak, exhausted, stick thin and had severe conjunctivitis. Her coat was matted and grey. Every time the black Lab got up and walked around the waiting room, the Lurcher was compelled to get up too pulled up by the bit of rope attached to it's neck and that of the Lab. It was heartbreaking. After a while, the other two members of the public started commenting and a discussion ensued with the homeless chap who the dogs were with. It turns out the homeless guy had rescued the Lurcher from gypsies that he'd been hanging around with who were using her for hare coursing but she'd become pregnant and ill. Her puppies had been killed in front of her and she'd become 'useless'. He'd regularly seen her kicked and beaten before running off with her.

I got up and went over to look at the Lurcher. She then looked up at me and I saw in her half closed eyes an expression I never want to see again in an animal. A look of complete hopelessness and defeat. A look of an animal that 'knew it was dead and didn't care'. It broke my heart to see it.

In the end, to cut a long story short, I ended up returning home with a a dog when that was the last thing I needed since the guy said he was probably going to prison awaiting a court date and wouldn't be able to look after her anyway!

The first trip to the vets proved she was barely out of puppyhood herself and that the homeless guy's story seemed to have more than an element of truth in it about how she had been treated. She had serious gynae problems from 'mating' too young and had to be spade immediately. She was severely malnutritioned, was almost bald in some areas, had lice, fleas, and worst of all, swelling behind one of her eyes caused by repeated bruising to the head which had led to cataracts and conjunctivitis. She didn't stop shaking for several months and it took me nearly a year to gain her trust.

Jenny, once she had recovered from all the ailments, eventually turned into the best natured dog you ever met and stunning to boot with a pure white thick coat, two soft sandy coloured ears and laughing dark brown eyes. Her favourite passtime was hightailing it over the Downs chasing rabbits (but never caught anything all the years I had her!). She became a faithful companion and had a healthy 15 years before I had to sadly have her put to sleep from a serious illness in her old age.

[Kayleigh]

Originally Posted by Picidae

Worth bearing in mind some travellers/gypsies often don't treat their dogs any better than the animals that are hunted imo - A tale you might like to hear: (sorry Kayleigh if it's too off thread for you!)

Years ago, while waiting at a coach station for a bus late one rainy Feb evening, I entered the waiting room where two people were already there sheltering from the rain. A third person, homeless/traveller, had two dogs tied to each other by a short piece of rope. The first dog, a fit looking black Lab cross, was dragging round a thin beraggled young white Lurcher on the end of a bit of rope that was round the Lab and the Lurcher's neck. The Lurcher was weak, exhausted, stick thin and had severe conjunctivitis. Her coat was matted and grey. Every time the black Lab got up and walked around the waiting room, the Lurcher was compelled to get up too pulled up by the bit of rope attached to it's neck and that of the Lab. It was heartbreaking. After a while, the other two members of the public started commenting and a discussion ensued with the homeless chap who the dogs were with. It turns out the homeless guy had rescued the Lurcher from gypsies that he'd been hanging around with who were using her for hare coursing but she'd become pregnant and ill. Her puppies had been killed in front of her and she'd become 'useless'. He'd regularly seen her kicked and beaten before running off with her.

I got up and went over to look at the Lurcher. She then looked up at me and I saw in her half closed eyes an expression I never want to see again in an animal. A look of complete hopelessness and defeat. A look of an animal that 'knew it was dead and didn't care'. It broke my heart to see it.

In the end, to cut a long story short, I ended up returning home with a a dog when that was the last thing I needed since the guy said he was probably going to prison awaiting a court date and wouldn't be able to look after her anyway!

The first trip to the vets proved she was barely out of puppyhood herself and that the homeless guy's story seemed to have more than an element of truth in it about how she had been treated. She had serious gynae problems from 'mating' too young and had to be spade immediately. She was severely malnutritioned, was almost bald in some areas, had lice, fleas, and worst of all, swelling behind one of her eyes caused by repeated bruising to the head which had led to cataracts and conjunctivitis. She didn't stop shaking for several months and it took me nearly a year to gain her trust.

Jenny, once she had recovered from all the ailments, eventually turned into the best natured dog you ever met and stunning to boot with a pure white thick coat, two soft sandy coloured ears and laughing dark brown eyes. Her favourite passtime was hightailing it over the Downs chasing rabbits (but never caught anything all the years I had her!). She became a faithful companion and had a healthy 15 years before I had to sadly have her put to sleep from a serious illness in her old age.

Picidae, what a lovely heart warming story you saved that dogs life and restored her faith in human kindness its unbelievable how cruel some people can be you were her guardian angel that night..

[Vincent86]

The thing they're currently doing is disgusting. Cruel!

[squeek]

any petitions we can sign Kayleigh ?

[Kayleigh]

Originally Posted by squeek

any petitions we can sign Kayleigh ?

Its illegal what they are doing Squeek so petitions won't do any good as they are criminals and they don't abide by rules like eeyore said if you see anything report it but for god sake dont let them see you doing it and make sure you can get away quick leave it to the police once you have reported it.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Kayleigh

Its illegal what they are doing Squeek so petitions won't do any good as they are criminals and they don't abide by rules like eeyore said if you see anything report it but for god sake dont let them see you doing it and make sure you can get away quick leave it to the police once you have reported it.

unfortunately the legalities of hare coursing are not quite so simple - from the TVP website (they copied it from the lincs police website for informational purposes)

Hare coursing in itself can be legal.

The season runs between the first of September until the last day of March and there are legally run coursing clubs such as The East of England Coursing Club which run well-organised events.

Hare coursing becomes illegal if carried out on a Sunday because it is illegal to take game of any description on a Sunday. It is also illegal to course on land with dogs without the permission of the landowner. Those who do so are trespassing and committing the offence of poaching.

Lincolnshire has always suffered from illegal coursing. This is because the county is very rural and agricultural, it is very flat and dogs can be easily seen chasing the hares. This means the activity can be filmed without interruption. The county also has a high population of hares.

Lincolnshire suffers from groups of people coming from as far afield as Manchester, Northumberland, Yorkshire and even Devon and Cornwall to illegally course for hares.

Apart from the 'sporting' aspect, it is known that the dogs chasing the hare is often videoed, taken back to where the coursers live and used as the basis for major betting events where pundits place their bets on which dog will catch the hare etc.

The powers Lincolnshire Police has include The Game Act which states that it is illegal to pursue or take game without a licence. Powers of arrest are an option under Section 25 of PACE (Police and Criminal Evidence Act).

Coursing can be very frustrating for farmers not least because one of the offences it can entail is criminal damage when vehicles are driven across newly-sown land. There is also the possibility of ancillary crime, such as the theft of agricultural equipment, damage caused when the offenders gain access to the fields and the intimidation of landowners. Coursers also risk spreading diseases to animals and crops.

We would ask residents and visitors to the county to keep an eye out for illegal courses and call Lincolnshire Police on 01522 532222.

Please be aware that our officers may be committed to other incidents. They might not be able to attend immediately. It may be necessary for victims to obtain evidence using video cameras and to take note of any vehicle numbers and descriptions of offenders. We are often unable to prosecute due to lack of independent evidence.

What are Lincolnshire Police Doing About it?

With the onset of another season of hare coursing, Lincolnshire Police have been busy preparing for the influx of offenders.

Lincolnshire Police are part of an Eastern Region Group of Police Forces, all of whom face problems with hare coursers and who have agreed to work together in regional operations intended to target offenders in what is widely regarded as a predominantly rural crime.

Lincolnshire Police will be dedicating resources to this area of policing and will be assisted by local landowners and gamekeepers as well as having access to air support if required. The regional operations will be ongoing throughout the autumn and winter months.

Lincolnshire Police Rural Intelligence Officer, Nigel Lound said: "Last season between November and March we received reports of over 500 incidents relating solely to hare coursing. This resulted in a lot of people ringing the Police having been affected by these activities.

"We intend to reduce the fear of this crime by dedicating resources to it. Coursing is the use of dogs, mainly Lurcher / Greyhound types which are released with a view to pursuing a hare. The object is not the killing of the hare, but rather the skill of the dogs at "turning" the hare. The hare is, however, regularly killed.

"Hare coursing itself is not illegal, however it becomes illegal when persons trespass on land in pursuit of game such as the hare."

thus if squeek really wants to she could start / sign a petition agains the legal hare coursing - not that this would do any good because the govt takes very little notice of petitions and if you did suceed in getting it banned coursers would just continue to do it illegally anyway.

[Jonathan]

I think that page hasn't been updated for some time Eeyore, hare coursing has been banned in the UK since the implementation of the Hunting Act 2004.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

I think that page hasn't been updated for some time Eeyore, hare coursing has been banned in the UK since the implementation of the Hunting Act 2004.

okay i stand corrected - i dont know much about legal hare coursing only the operations against the illegal kind.

I thought the hunting act allowed you to use up to two dogs to chase game -in the way that you can still use a long dog when lamping foxes, or was hare coursing specifically banned in the act ?

[Kayleigh]

Originally Posted by eeyore

okay i stand corrected - i dont know much about legal hare coursing only the operations against the illegal kind.

I thought the hunting act allowed you to use up to two dogs to chase game -in the way that you can still use a long dog when lamping foxes, or was hare coursing specifically banned in the act ?

This is getting interesting I also thought some hare coursing was legal if they get the land owners permission.
Can some find out what the law is as I'm sure others will be interested.