hare coursing

[Kayleigh]

Originally Posted by eeyore

it is - the type described in that report is illegal , and the police do their best to deal with the problem (the police operation in the downs/TVP region is called operation migrate and involves regular police patrols in the hotspot areas) - however the police are reliant on inteligence from locals because they cant be everywhere at once so if you see coursing in progress report it on 999 - also if you can observe without getting too close record vehicle reg numbers and descriptions - but do not try to stop them yourself - I have been fired on by hare coursers in the past.

and kayleigh - I've just reported the troll, hopefully the mods will deal shortly

Thanks eeyore....

you cant expect people to come forward when they are not given proper sentencing in the courts these are dangerous individuals.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Kayleigh

Thanks eeyore....

you cant expect people to come forward when they are not given proper sentencing in the courts these are dangerous individuals.

i'm not talking about being a witness - all i'm saying is call 999 or crime stoppers - you can do than anoymously if you want, the police need to know where these people are operating if "migrate" is to stand a decent chance of catching them red handed.

also make sure the land owner is aware that they are there and how they are accessing so that they can take preventative measures like anti vehicle ditches and leaving large boulders or bits of machinery in gateways etc

i'm aware they are dangerous - i got that impression when a group shot the windscreen out of my hilux in '99 - but if no one is willing to help the police even by giving information anonymously its a bit harsh to then criticise the police for not "policing it effectively".

and in my experience the courts do hand down a decent sentence to those caught red handed by migrate etc - armed tresspass is a serious offence, and their is adequate case law now for a coursing dog to be considered "a weapon" even if they arent armed , which they usually are.

[Kayleigh]

Originally Posted by eeyore

i'm not talking about being a witness - all i'm saying is call 999 or crime stoppers - you can do than anoymously if you want, the police need to know where these people are operating if "migrate" is to stand a decent chance of catching them red handed.

also make sure the land owner is aware that they are there and how they are accessing so that they can take preventative measures like anti vehicle ditches and leaving large boulders or bits of machinery in gateways etc

i'm aware they are dangerous - i got that impression when a group shot the windscreen out of my hilux in '99 - but if no one is willing to help the police even by giving information anonymously its a bit harsh to then criticise the police for not "policing it effectively".

and in my experience the courts do hand down a decent sentence to those caught red handed by migrate etc - armed tresspass is a serious offence, and their is adequate case law now for a coursing dog to be considered "a weapon" even if they arent armed , which they usually are.

Yes, I understand that it doesn't take a lot to phone and I hope people would if they saw this going on..
But I'm not sure other people would and to catch them red handed the police would have to be quick to catch them and sometimes they dont get good press as to being prompt but maybe they would as this is a high priority as weapons are involved.

[DunkeryMunkery]

Originally Posted by Alan K

I've been an active anti-bloodsports campaigner for nearly 30 years.
The type of hare-coursing described in the BBC report is practised by people trespassing on other's land. Before the Hunting Act 2005, this was, and can still be, dealt with by police and courts under poaching and criminal trespass legislation. The people who do this are frequently violent criminals and their associates, so nobody should approach them if they see this happening. Phone 999.
No less cruel was the previously legal hare-coursing practised at organised events, notably the annual Waterloo Cup, at which crowds of up to 10,000 used to assemble. I attended it once, as part of a protest. It was utterly ghastly. The crowds were a strange mix of the obviously well-heeled and excuse the expression, underclass scum, many of whom were drunk. A policeman on duty there said to me that, if he could arrest everyone present, crime in Liverpool [the nearest big city] would be virtually eliminated overnight.
It is true that the hares escaped the greyhounds more often than not, but when they were caught a 'tug-of-war' would often ensue between the two hounds, with the screaming hare literally being ripped apart. This was what really got the crowds excited.
The hares used at the Waterloo Cup were mostly imported from other parts of the country. Caught in netting, they reportedly suffered up to 50% mortality just from capture and transport.
Because such events are confined to one location, and difficult to organise and hold without it being obvious, it does appear that the Hunting Act has been pretty successful in stopping them.
Unfortunately, this is about the only form of the cruel and barbaric practice of hunting wild mammals with dogs where the Act has succeeded. Fox, deer, mink and hare hunting continue, because of weak wording and loopholes in the Act and lack of enforcement. The principal way hunters are circumventing the ban is by pretending to be hunting a scent trail. But, where they bother with actually creating a trail at all, fox hunts are using ones made of actual fox scent and trailing them through areas known to be inhabited by foxes. The chases and kills that inevitably result are then blamed on 'accidents'.
Hare hunters claim to be hunting rabbits [not made illegal, for various reasons, under the Act] if challenged and hares caught are, similarly, 'accidents'. Hare hunting, generally using beagles [about 70 packs in the UK] is arguably even crueller than hare coursing. The hare, reluctant to leave its known environment or seek underground refuge, is chased by the pack for anything up to 90 minutes before being caught and torn to pieces.
Deer are still being hunted with hounds in Devon and Somerset, but using a ludicrous exemption that allows this for purposes of 'observation and study'.
All this is still happening for nothing more than the amusement of those concerned. These 'sports' do not, and never have had, anything to do with genuine pest control and their proponents never claimed they did - until they started to come under severe public censure for indulging in them.
It is obvious that the Hunting Act needs strengthening. Labour and the Lib-Dems will oppose repeal, but are reluctant to revisit the Act. The organisation I'm part of, Protect Our Wild Animals [POWA. www.powa.org.uk] is asking them to commit to strengthening.
But David Cameron [a hunter and shooter himself], the Conservative leader, is a bosom buddy of the bloodsports fraternity and his Environment spokesman, Nick Herbert, is a former avid hare hunter. They have pledged that, if the Conservatives are elected, they will repeal the Hunting Act, so that their friends can carry on their cruel pastimes completely unfettered by the law. So in thrall to the Countryside Alliance [formerly the British Field Sports Society] do they seem to be that when they recently said this repeal would be dealt with by a Private Members Bill, the howls of protest from the hunters immediately made them switch back to their original promise to do it via a Government Bill.
Incidentally, they also favour mass badger killing, because of that animals supposed role in spreading bovine TB.

This is very interesting Alan.

How do you suppose the hunting act should be strengthened?

And how many more parliamentary hours should be spent on it?

[Merrow]

Oh don't get me started on hare coursing

It is endemic over here (and fully legal, though the dogs have to wear muzzles, which supposedly makes it ''ok'' )

Even when the hares survive the experience they are put under awful stress by the experience and often die afterwards because of that.

We have a rescued greyhound who was meant to be a coursing dog (his Dad was quite well known and sired literally thousands of pups) and it is something I feel so strongly about

[davejg]

We see it a lot when pike fishing in the fens. as alan said it normally includes villains. round here a lot fo travellers as well. I was with a landowner when he phoned the police, only to be told they would attend when they could. he told me on another day they had turned up next day, BUT a couple of coursers had come to his house thst evenig and told him not to phone the police again (someone had tipped them off within an hour of his call).

[davejg]

Kayleigh the thing that will keep coursing going is the betting, thousands off pounds, and all the trouble that brings with it

[Kayleigh]

Originally Posted by davejg

Kayleigh the thing that will keep coursing going is the betting, thousands off pounds, and all the trouble that brings with it

Yes, you are right its like all illegal activities dog fighting and drug dealing money is the root cause it all seems to be linked to gambling in this way.
Is it me or do SOME travellers seem to be above the law.

[davejg]

Some, and some bookies, they always seem to get warned. same with the dog fighting.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Kayleigh

Is it me or do SOME travellers seem to be above the law.

Your wrong Kayleigh . . . ALL travellers are above the law!

Travellers usually take part in 'best of three' hare coursing whereby a single dog is used to course the hare, whereas in competitive coursing, under Coursing Club rules (as per the Waterloo Cup), two dogs were run. Ironically, the former is, in my opinion, less cruel. Even in competitive coursing hares rarely got 'torn apart', but there was always a risk of it happening for the simple reason that two dogs were used. When one dog is used the lurcher/longdog/greyhound kills the hare relatively quickly, it isn't in the dog's interest not to as hares can kick like hell.

I was a member of the Coursing Club for some years and attended many Waterloo Cups. If I'm honest I stopped going because I realised the risk of a hare being torn apart was always there, though I personally never saw it happen. If one dog managed to catch the hare the other dog would sometimes get hold before the first dog had a chance to kill it. Generally, a steward would be close at hand to despatch the hare (they lined the coursing field on either side, around 30yds apart).

I'm not trying to defend coursing, though, personally, I don't find a dog killing a hare any more cruel than a fox killing one, and far less cruel than traditional hare drives - if hares need controlling (and they sometimes do). Also, there are absolutely sound reasons why a coursed hare population is fitter and healthier than one that is controlled by shooting, I can explain if anyone's interested . . . actually, reading that last paragraph back, maybe I am trying to defend coursing!

What I wouldn't try to defend is the gangs of coursers who are now placing huge bets on the outcome of best of three matches. To be honest, this has always gone on, even when coursing was legal. In fact coursing grounds throughout Britain were plagued by gangs poaching the area simply because there were so many hares! These guys are a far cry from the local poacher who used to take a hare or two with lurchers for the pot. I've tried to reason with them when I've caught them on local farms - I've even had my own lurchers in the back of the van! All to no avail. If you threaten to phone the police they threaten to burn down the farmer's barns. I've actually been told by a couple of farmers to just leave them to it as it's simply not worth the hassle. I've been threatened personally and they've threatened to take my dogs off me (I've seen travellers turf unwanted lurchers out of their vehicles on the M6 - why would anyone do that?).

I haven't hunted for some years now, though I was obsessed by hunting at one time. I don't even own a lurcher these days, my last one died at the age of seventeen a couple of years ago. Hope I've not offended anyone, I've just tried to be honest and give some background information.

One other point - most of what Alan K suggested is highly inaccurate, and I'm not sure, as a protestor, how he managed to reach some of the conclusions he did. Protestors at the Waterloo Cup were not there all day. They were marched from their coach (and it usually was only one coach) with a police escort, they stood at the end of the coursing field, several hundred yards away from the supporters, hurled abuse at us for twenty minutes, then got on their coach and went home.