Intellegent animals

[Cotham Marble]

Originally Posted by animartco

Now you are getting rude Cotham Marble. Lets have some straight answers to YOUR rhetoric. You say that horses 'have an instinct to learn'. If this is so would it not apply equally to humans? Are you saying that horses have an instinct to learn but humans do not? If so on what do you base this assertion?

No intention on my part to be rude. If you had taken the courtesy to read my posts at the begining of this thread you would see that I make no fundemental distinction between intelligence as a quality in humans and other animals - something which I've reiterated (again you might have attempted to read it) in more recent posts. I'm entirely confident that my rhetoric has been clear and consistent throughout this thread and I've used terms in either the common 'dictionary' meaning or specified where I intended terms to have some specilised meaning. I do not find the same consistency with what you written, to the extent that having any kind of meaningful exchange is impossible. If you want to put that failure down to my inability to grasp what you are trying to get at - then fine.

CM

[posie]

Originally Posted by Cotham Marble

No intention on my part to be rude. If you had taken the courtesy to read my posts at the begining of this thread you would see that I make no fundemental distinction between intelligence as a quality in humans and other animals - something which I've reiterated (again you might have attempted to read it) in more recent posts. I'm entirely confident that my rhetoric has been clear and consistent throughout this thread and I've used terms in either the common 'dictionary' meaning or specified where I intended terms to have some specilised meaning. I do not find the same consistency with what you written, to the extent that having any kind of meaningful exchange is impossible. If you want to put that failure down to my inability to grasp what you are trying to get at - then fine.

CM

Hi CM, Will you please stop stamping your little foot.......Posie

[Beekeeper]

Originally Posted by posie

..I hope a lizard or a hedgehog don't try rolling across a cattle-grid, 'cos they'd fall in..

Not sure about lizards Posie but frequently hedgehogs fall in here in the New Forest, i have rescued a few and been thanked by the hedgehogs and presented with a couple of handfulls of fleas.

Ian

[posie]

Originally Posted by Beekeeper

Not sure about lizards Posie but frequently hedgehogs fall in here in the New Forest, i have rescued a few and been thanked by the hedgehogs and presented with a couple of handfulls of fleas.

Ian

AAAHH ! Maybe you could carry a phial of suitable medication to put on them to get rid of their fleas for them..Bless.....Posie..

[STYRBJORN]

Well, as predicted we are just arguing definitions of intelligence. I am going to move on a stage. Read the following logical argument. Since the symbols used in predicate logic are not available I have phrased it in normal English.

1.) IF animals have intelligence THEN they have free will.
2.) IF they have free will THEN they are moral agents.
3.) IF they are moral agents THEN they are responsible for their actions
4.) IF they are responsible for their actions THEN they can held to account both for those actions and for any foreseeable consequences.

Conclusion:-
5.) IF animals are intelligent THEN it must be the case that they can be held to account for their actions.

I suspect that the proponents of animal intelligence won't like it but the logic is structurally sound. Of course you may not accept all the premises.

I will now don my steel helmet and body armour and retire to my dug-out . . .

[pressld2]

Not sure I do accept all the premises, number 1 seems arguable to me.

But even if, for the sake of argument, I do accept them all there is still the matter of degree. No one (surely) would argue that a three year old child does not posess intelligence but we don't hold them accountable for their actions. Partly due to lack of learning and experience, partly because their reasoning powers are not fully developed yet. It is possible for animals to posess a degree of intelligence but a degree that is not sufficient for them to automatically be held accountable for their actions.

Dave P.

[STYRBJORN]

Dave - valid points both. I am taking as read that one major part of intelligence is the ability to choose between courses of action, which is also a definition of free will. Your second point is stronger and has caused moral philosophers deep problems. We do not regard children as moral agents, nor do we so regard the mentally ill.

The intriguing bit about the argument comes if you reverse it. It leads then to the conclusion that if animals are not moral agents they cannot be intelligent.

I have a reputation on campus for being a winder-upper of the first degree. Don't know why . . .

[pressld2]

I'm guessing STYRBJORN = BORN to STIR?

Dave P.

[STYRBJORN]

Originally Posted by pressld2

I'm guessing STYRBJORN = BORN to STIR?

Dave P.

That's brilliant! Never occurred to me TBH but it fits a treat. Styrbjorn was a famous Viking around the turn of the first millennium, and since I have Viking ancestry I nicked his name for a site name.

[posie]

Originally Posted by STYRBJORN

I have a reputation on campus for being a winder-upper of the first degree. Don't know why . . .

Hi Born to Stir,

If you mean you don't know why you are a winder-upper of the first degree,
a psychologist could answer that for you, maybe you should make an appointment.......Posie