Intellegent animals

[Beekeeper]

Originally Posted by The Woodman

I am going to disagree with your comment destroying our environment, BK.

Just about everyliving thing adapts the environment to suit their life style, not neccessarily destroying it but adapting it.

I was looking a section of river bank flood defence yesterday where rabbits had burrowed into it, being the only available higher ground in that area and aeasy digging too. The recent high tides have infiltrated the system of holes, eroded the defence and caused some considerable erosion on the river bank. That wasn't very intelligent, was it?

The big difference is that we are well aware of the damage we are doing to our enviroment and ultimately our own survival whereas as animals are not, the other major difference is that we are destroying everything on a global scale including in the process the habitat of many other species, as we have colonised the world, damage caused by other species is normally localised and minimal by comparison.

BK

[posie]

Originally Posted by wild flower

A definition of intelligence i have just looked up is, 'the ability to learn, understand and make judgements'. By that definition surely animals are intelligent.

...Learn, understand and make judgements...mmm...yes, animals can and do do all of this...but basic survival, of firstly itself so subsequently the species, seems to be the driving force, so, those things being instinctive, does instinct come in first, giving the 'wish to achieve the goal,' then they draw on 'intelligence' to give the method to do the action necessary to achieve the goal..... and thus survival..

Posie

[STYRBJORN]

If dolphins are intelligent how come they keep getting caught in fishing nets?

Why would herbivores develop intelligence? You don't need much brain to sneak up on a leaf.

It's only too easy to get trapped into over-using the Intentional Stance. American philosopher of Cognitive Science Daniel C. Dennett has done a lot of work on this. Briefly, it means assuming that an action is purposive. It plays a big role in folk psychology, and can be an invaluable tool in dealing with other people. It works by asking "if I did that, why would I do it and what would I do next?"

It can also be useful in dealing with inanimate cbjects. Dennett's favourlte is a central heating thermostat. How does it work? You can explain at the deepest level, the quantum mechanical changes. You can explain in engineering terms. Or you can adopt the Intentional Stance and say that the thermostat senses whan the temperature has fallen too low and sends a signal to the boiler which lights in response. When the temperature has risen to to the desired level, the thermostat senses the temperature and sends a signal to the boiler to switch off. Nonsensical to talk about a thermostat as though it were intelligent? Or a very useful way to summarise what happens?

The problem arises when we observe animal behaviour. How much is purposive and how much instinctive? It is easy to assume that the animal/thermostat knew what it was doing and why when it was merely following a program designed (?) by evolution/Potterton boilers and which mimics purposivity.

Vide especially Dennett, Daniel C. The Intentional Stance 1987 Massachusets Institute of Technology, and Dennett, Daniel C. Consciousness Explained 1991 Little, Brown and Company New York.
Not easy reading but very rewarding.

In case you hadn't guessed by now, I am strongly in favour of the the program model rather than the purposivity/intelligence position.

[Cowgirl]

A farmer friend told me of a sow he had who used to rip off the neck collar of fellow pigs (the collar contains an electronic transponder which allows a pig access into an automatic feeder) so she could get extra rations. Now that's & intelligent, sneaky, almost humanlike behaviour ?

[Cowgirl]

Originally Posted by STYRBJORN

If dolphins are intelligent how come they keep getting caught in fishing nets?

That's no arguement! How come I keep tripping over things when I know they are there?

[posie]

.A) Yes Cowgirl, that is one clever pig...I'm waiting for all the replies to come in giving the reasons why she did it other than 'intelligence'

.B)Probably because you were a Dolphin in a previous life,...or...Dolphins were you in a previous life..

C)*****''There's an animal behavior programme on BBC2 on Weds. at 8pm*****

[Lancashire Lad]

There are many instances where animals have shown purposive reasoning rather than simple instinct.

For example: -

Finches using stick “tools” to extract insects from tree crevices: -
YouTube - Bird Tool Usage: Galápagos finches catching dinner

Chimps & Monkeys using stones to crack nuts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj7cY3w4tb4
YouTube - Nut Cracking Chimps

Crows dropping nuts onto pelican crossings in order that traffic squashes the shell, and waiting until the traffic is halted before being able to safely collect the meal: -
YouTube - Wild crows inhabiting the city use it to their advantage - David Attenborough - BBC wildlife

Herons using bread as “bait”, in order to catch fish: -
YouTube - Bird Fishes Like A Human
YouTube - Green Heron uses bread as bait.mpg

I accept that much of this type of behaviour might be attributed to learning from parents/peers, but somewhere back along the line, the first animals to use these techniques must have done so purposely. I don’t believe any of this would be adequately explained as solely “instinct”.

Regards,
Mike.

[Cowgirl]

Originally Posted by posie

.A) Yes Cowgirl, that is one clever pig...I'm waiting for all the replies to come in giving the reasons why she did it other than 'intelligence'

.B)Probably because you were a Dolphin in a previous life,...or...Dolphins were you in a previous life..

C)*****''There's an animal behavior programme on BBC2 on Weds. at 8pm*****

Ah wise words Posie, probably explains why I kept falling into large bodies of water when I was younger much to the despair of my mother

Will keep an eye out for the telly programme, I love stuff like that.

[mrsp]

I use electric fencing in my field and my pony goes over and listens to the ticker box...if it ticks he goes away,if it isn't ticking then he pushes the fence over to get to the new grass. No tick means no battery which means no shock from the fence,it only took him a few week to suss that one out!

[posie]

Originally Posted by mrsp

I use electric fencing in my field and my pony goes over and listens to the ticker box...if it ticks he goes away,if it isn't ticking then he pushes the fence over to get to the new grass. No tick means no battery which means no shock from the fence,it only took him a few week to suss that one out!

I've got the same thing here, mrsp, and I find the ponies are as you say, but the bigger horses, inc cobs, once they have had a tickle of the electric, are verrry wary of white tape, even if it's laid along the ground, not connected to anything...won't go near it, and won't try to step or jump over it either.....
But the little tinkers are clever...

Posie.