Extreme gamekeeper exposed

[deer boy]

How many more times are we going to read stories like this,if i caught this idiot i would have made sure he never had the use of his hands again
Well done to the other two gamekeepers though for reporting him.

[demicav]

Terrible, those poor animals.

[RobSutton]

Perhaps some good news on a similar theme:

A leading fund manager and owner of a substantial Scottish grouse moor has been hit by the largest ever financial penalty under farming legislation after police found highly toxic and illegal pesticides on his estate.

John Dodd, the multimillionaire owner of the Glenogil shooting estate, in Angus, Tayside, has had his farming subsidy cut by £107,000 by the Scottish executive because of suspicions that the discovered pesticides were used against birds of prey on his land.

Record penalty for grouse moor where poison was found near birds of prey | Environment | The Guardian

Maybe the judiciary can help.

[Rob_D]

So we, the public, have given nearly £1m over 3 years to this millionaire to run his shooting estate. And he pays us back by killing BOP in a pretty blatant manner.

I am glad they are able to hit him where it hurts by taking away a little bit of his subsidy.

[Jim Ford]

Originally Posted by Rob_D

So we, the public, have given nearly £1m over 3 years to this millionaire to run his shooting estate. And he pays us back by killing BOP in a pretty blatant manner.

I can hear it now:

"Nobody's going to tell me what I can and cannot do on _my_ land!"

Jim

[geordie graham]

I thought subsidies were for all the poor farmers who a struggling to make ends meet that I keep hearing about.

Graham

[Moobli]

I am so glad he was caught - and I hope his boss throws the book at him and he loses his job. What he did was barbaric and wrong - and he should be serving a jail sentence, but hey ho that is our Legal system for you!

I live amongst professional gamekeepers on a large grouse moor and, even though I am not a fan of their job description (I love foxes too much!), I have to say they are always very humane and professional in their approach to predator control. It is also very well known among us all who live in that community that raptor killing will not be tolerated - and it would most certainly be a sackable offence - as it should be!

[Jim Ford]

Originally Posted by Moobli

I live amongst professional gamekeepers on a large grouse moor and, even though I am not a fan of their job description (I love foxes too much!), I have to say they are always very humane and professional in their approach to predator control. It is also very well known among us all who live in that community that raptor killing will not be tolerated - and it would most certainly be a sackable offence - as it should be!

But isn't the disappointing results of the Red Kite introduction into Scotland compared to England, the result of killings by gamekeepers/landowners?

Jim

[Bwrack]

Read the RSPB mag and other countryside related publications, it seems that game keepers
are always being prosecuted for killing wild birds

[salukiwhippet]

This man is far from typical of gamekeepers. If he he was, the other keepers would hardly have reported it, they'd be just as guilty.

As for 'keepering being regulated or licenced, it already is, in that the vast majority of keepers need shotguns and firearms to do their job, and certificates for these are only issued (assuming the Police do their job properly!) to people of good character.

James

[Goatboy]

Originally Posted by salukiwhippet

This man is far from typical of gamekeepers. If he he was, the other keepers would hardly have reported it, they'd be just as guilty.

As for 'keepering being regulated or licenced, it already is, in that the vast majority of keepers need shotguns and firearms to do their job, and certificates for these are only issued (assuming the Police do their job properly!) to people of good character.

James

I'm not an expert on such matters. Does that mean their shotgun license would be taken away if they were convicted for shooting animals illegally?

[Jim Ford]

Originally Posted by salukiwhippet

As for 'keepering being regulated or licenced, it already is, in that the vast majority of keepers need shotguns and firearms to do their job, and certificates for these are only issued (assuming the Police do their job properly!) to people of good character.

Firearms certificates never used to be issued to anyone convicted of a criminal offence - it was a lifetime ban. As the offending gamekeeper was given a suspended jail sentence, I would think it counts as a criminal offence and he would never hold a FAC again. Shotgun licenses were always different, and I'm not sure what the law regarding them is now. They used to be 5 bob at the local Post Office!

Jim

[Rob_D]

The guy may not be typical of gamekeepers, but there are clearly many more like him who are going unpunished. Just look at the Sandringham Hen Harrier case - was anyone ever prosectued for that blatant crime? No. And if it was one of the royals themselves who did it, do you really think they instructed their 13 gamekeepers against killing raptors on pain of dismissal? It's so endemic in some areas that it's hard to believe shooting raptors isn't encouraged by the estates rather than condemned. Perhaps it's not true of most estates, but plenty enough.

Shooting needs to get its house in order if it is to avoid some severe public reactions.

[Jim Ford]

The core of a gamekeepers job is to encourage an artificially high population of game birds on their employers land. To do this effectively, they they need to artificially suppress the numbers of predators of the game birds.

Can a gamekeeper or ex gamekeeper on this forum tell me othewise?

Jim

[salukiwhippet]

Shotgun Cert (SGC) is easier to obtain as the police have to show that you are unsuitable to hold one. Firearms Cert (FAC) is more complicated, you have to show that you are suitable to hold one, that you have somewhere to use it, that you have experience/knowledge of the calibre and that you have a good reason for each calibre/type of gun you wish to own.

Yes part of the job of a keeper is to control predators, but the vast majority do so legally. I control several predator species by a variety of means, but all within the law. Ensuring the habitat is correct, spring feeding and control of corvids will have more benefit for game than killing all the buzzards and Badgers on an estate!!

As for the 'blatant crime' at Sandringham, as far as I know, no corpse was ever found, the reports were all based on one account from someone some distance from the alledged incident. Hardly a blatant crime, if a crime at all.

James

[Rob_D]

Originally Posted by salukiwhippet

Yes part of the job of a keeper is to control predators, but the vast majority do so legally. I control several predator species by a variety of means, but all within the law. Ensuring the habitat is correct, spring feeding and control of corvids will have more benefit for game than killing all the buzzards and Badgers on an estate!!

As for the 'blatant crime' at Sandringham, as far as I know, no corpse was ever found, the reports were all based on one account from someone some distance from the alledged incident. Hardly a blatant crime, if a crime at all.

James

OK, I accept the majority including you obey the law. Well done for not breaking the law! But given the widespread nature of wildlife crime prosecutions against gamekeepers and the huge difficulty in obtaining evidence to get as far as a prosecution, we can be certain that there is a very significant minority who don't obey the law and they are frequently NOT put under any pressure by their colleagues and employers to stop. We are not talking about "a few bad apples" here but systematic law breaking in the shooting community.

An attitude of denial of crime is one of the root causes of it. It is this attitude amongst the shooting community that makes them complicit. They know it goes on, but pretend it doesn't. As I said, it is this attitude which will get shooting under intense public scrutiny and subsequently much stronger legal restrictions.

In the case of Sandringham there were TWO Hen Harriers shot witnessed by 3 people in two different groups, one of whom is a professional member of Natural England. Both the Police and the RSPB felt these eyewitness accounts were credible. The crime is blatant because it was perpetrated next to a nature reserve, an area with public access, in full view of witnesses. Is your view is that they made up these accounts to discredit shooting? You only go to prove my point about denial.

[derelict]

Originally Posted by RobSutton

Perhaps some good news on a similar theme:

url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/sep/22/wildlife.conservation]Record penalty for grouse moor where poison was found near birds of prey | Environment | The Guardian[/url]

Maybe the judiciary can help.

According to a link on the above John Dodd the landowner (and bank owner) has lodged an appeal against it. And if he wins the appeal then I presume he gets the dosh plus costs... that's how to treat your benefactors... I suppose it's the wealthy landowner equivalent of punching a member of the DSS's counter staff when your giro's late.

[salukiwhippet]

Yes some gamekeepers are 'bad apples', but it is only a minority. All the professional groups (NGO and SGA) speak out against the killing of raptors, both in public and in their member's magazines.
Some men are rapists, some muslims are suicide bombers, but (rightly) you don't find those groups being universally and publicly demonised. Please don't do it to gamekeepers.

As for the Sandringham incident, I didn't know there were 2 separate groups of witnesses. I still feel it is highly unlikely that a Sandringham Keeper would shoot these birds, and if he did, that he'd do it in such a publically viewable location. I am sure that the estate would dismiss any keeper found guilty of such actions, they're so high profile they sould hardly not do so.


James

[james bennet]

Not only am I appalled (but not surprised) by this guy's actions, I also can't understand them. What exactly do Badgers do against game birds, that they should be controlled in such a brutal manner? Or is this just killing for the love of killing?

Like many other people I suspect this is the tip of a very large iceberg. This case only came to light because this guy's an idiot, but there are probably many others clever enough not to brag about their actions down the pub.

I'd love to see the day when our countryside can be managed in a way, that does not have at its heart, destruction of our native wildife for the protection of an introduced species, for the enjoyment of a priviledged few.

[Rob_D]

I am pleased to hear that the shooting magazines and organisations do speak out, I was not aware of this. Though I have frequently heard them denying it on a number of occasions too. They often come up with conspiracy theories.

"The Scottish Gamekeepers Association deny its members are responsible, and said there were many reasons for breeding failures, including predation by foxes. Its chairman, Alex Hogg, said: "There are video pictures showing foxes eating these birds' eggs, but constant monitoring and disturbance in the name of research also causes nesting failures. These researchers are allegedly investigating the persecution of hen harriers, but what they appear to actually be doing is persecuting a profession."

You missed my point which is that it is clearly NOT JUST A FEW BAD APPLES. Until it is recognized by the community itself as an institutional problem that will be hard to shift. Instead of repeatedly denying the problem, they should take some action for their own sake. BLAMING THE INDIVIDUAL KEEPERS WILL NOT STOP IT.

[stripee]

Most perpetrators of wildlife crime seem to get off either on technicalities, sympathetic judges/juries, small fines or stern words. Until there is sentencing which acts as a proper deterrent, then these types of crime will carry on. I know it's hard to get the evidence. And as has been said, a change of attitude.

For those who can get welsh TV, there is a new series with Iolo Williams (who is sort of the welsh answer to Simon King!) about wildlife killings/crime on Thursday at 10.45pm. But the first prog will be about a major Badger baiting case from last year (local to me). I'm not sure I can bear to watch.

[Jim Ford]

Originally Posted by salukiwhippet

All the professional groups (NGO and SGA) speak out against the killing of raptors, both in public and in their member's magazines.

Ermm, well they'd have to wouldn't they? They can hardly condone the commission of a criminal act.

I strongly suspect that the speaking out against the killing of raptors is often interpreted as a tacit "If you have to do it, just don't get caught!".

I've said it before. If you want to encourage an artificially high population of game birds, you need to artificially suppress the numbers of predators of those game birds. Short of capturing them alive and taking them for a 'holiday' on a remote nature reserve, I don't see how gamekeepers can realistically control the numbers of predators without killing them!

Jim

[diggleken]

I agree with Jim.
I also wonder at the efficacy of gamekeeping in some cases. An example is that one of my local grouse moors (and there are a lot roundabouts) is full of birds where they dont muirburn the heather and because its not shot over and hasnt been for years. There are far fewer birds where they carry out this practice via the local gamekeeper and continue to shoot. It appears that natural heather regeneration is good enough to provide feed and also sustain an increasing population.
Why cant they just leave nature well alone?
Money and bloodlust eh!

[derelict]

[quote=Rob_D;344069].

"The Scottish Gamekeepers Association ... chairman, Alex Hogg, said: "There are video pictures showing foxes eating these birds' eggs, but constant monitoring and disturbance in the name of research also causes nesting failures. These researchers are allegedly investigating the persecution of hen harriers, but what they appear to actually be doing is persecuting a profession."

[quote]

This sounds like those outraged claims of "police harrassment" from those sections of the community engaged in systematic criminality. I await the Human Rights legislation being invoked to protect the guilty parties and I'm sure that nice Cherie Blair will be on the case. After all she has admitted taking considerable advantage of the hospitality of wealthy scottish landowners. Having messed up some of their sheets in the past it only behoves her to help them keep some clean ones.

[Digit]

Like quite a few people, Sir Peter Scott for example, part of my early life was more shooting than conservation. But with the stalking came a love of nature and the hanging up of my guns. But one thing all the 'guns' I have known have in common is a great knowledge of wildlife.
This young pr*t just liked killing!
If he hadn't shot so many Buzzards he wouldn't have needed to shoot so many Rabbits.
My little acre was plagued with Grey Squirrels and Magpies, and I found that if I shot one per annum they stayed away, the result was an increase in the fledgeling song birds
Yes, I accept that both have a right to live, but regrettably a certain level of control is necessary, even the RSPB have found this to be so.
I do it, I do not enjoy it.
Three years ago I was relieved of the task, two pairs of Rooks nested in a row of Scots Pines that border my garden, the following year six pairs, now I have a full blown Rookery and my air rifle is gathering dust as the Rook's beaks was something neither the Greys nor the Magpies would endure.

Roy.