Autumnal Rut!

[Leighgregory]

Hello I’m a newbie here, this is my first post!

I’m a keen photographer, lately I’ve been trying to photograph wildlife. I’ve had a lot of advice from the photography forum I use and I would be very grateful for some more.

I’ve set myself the challenge of photographing Deer during their autumnal run , i believe it takes place in the month of October? Could someone please clarify this? Im planning to use one location, either the new forest or Richmond park, any other suggestions welcome! I realise it will take a lot of learning and patience. I live in Swindon so these locations are roughly the same distance from me. To date i have photographed Deer in Dryham Park and Roe deer at a local nature reserve.

Any advice would be very welcome

Thanks

Leigh

[Hobjob]

If you check the meeting forum, you will find that there is to
be a WAB New Forest meet to look at the rut. There will be
lots of advice there (sadly I can't make it), and hopefully good
viewing

Originally Posted by Leighgregory

Hello I’m a newbie here, this is my first post!

I’m a keen photographer, lately I’ve been trying to photograph wildlife. I’ve had a lot of advice from the photography forum I use and I would be very grateful for some more.

I’ve set myself the challenge of photographing Deer during their autumnal run , i believe it takes place in the month of October? Could someone please clarify this? Im planning to use one location, either the new forest or Richmond park, any other suggestions welcome! I realise it will take a lot of learning and patience. I live in Swindon so these locations are roughly the same distance from me. To date i have photographed Deer in Dryham Park and Roe deer at a local nature reserve.

Any advice would be very welcome

Thanks

Leigh

[Leighgregory]

Thank you very much for the reply!

Regards

Leigh

[deer boy]

Originally Posted by Leighgregory

I’ve set myself the challenge of photographing Deer during their autumnal run , i believe it takes place in the month of October? Could someone please clarify this?

Hi Leigh welcome to WAB the Red Deer Rut starts at the end of september & finishes at the start of November.
Sorry i can't help with locations around Swindon although if you google Red Deer near Swindon i'm sure something will come up.
All the best,let us know how you get on

[derelict]

New Forest if you want wild animals - the downside is that some areas are off-limits so there's a possibility of no deer...

There are plenty of old threads on here if you search for "Richmond, rut" etc

If you want guaranteed deer try Bushy Park - another Royal Park, just north of Kingston on Thames - smaller and more compact than Richmond Park with a slightly smaller and less dispersed Red Deer herd. Bushy Park actually slightly unnerves me because of how close you can find yourself to the Red Deer outside the rut - at RP you'll rarely get closer than 30 yards but if you have binoculars or an equivalent lens you shouldn't need to. And during the rut who wants to?

The enclosed nature of the park means that nearly all the incumbencies are foregone conclusions as rankings are sorted out by intensive nocturnal "fight clubs" that start in September. It is rare for an incumbent stag to be displaced though they are regularly challenged.

The downside of RP for me is the large number (30+) of unattached males wandering around the park 24/7 with nothing better to do than challenge anything that moves. These are the ones you see sparring. They are a far greater danger than the big incumbent stags; they can appear from anywhere at any time and individual animals can turn big tracts of the park into "no-go" areas.

Another hazard is the large numbers of harems moving around the park. The females know exactly where they want to go and the stag (who doesn't know the park particularly well) tries to herd them. The result can be unpredictable. People are warned to stay out of the woods and with good reason. Last year the rut coincided with the chestnut fall and the woods were full of Red Deer.

Smaller stags have a particularly bad time - any still attached to their maternal group are evicted by the new incumbent. Everything else bullies them and they spend the month hiding in the bracken stands.

[ceb83]

Hi Leigh and welcome,

I'm fairly new to WAB too, only a handful of posts to my name.

I'm SO glad I'm not the only one living(??) in Swindon with a penchant for wildlife and photography.

I've never been free around the rutting season, before this year, and I'm planning on trying the New Forest, for Red Deer, in a week or so.

Bradgate Park, in Leciestershire along with Richmond Park, are, probably, the easiest locations where you'd be almost 'guaranteed' some superb shots.

Good luck, and let us know how you get on.

Cheers,

Carol

[Leighgregory]

Cool another Swindonion!!! Are you mainly a wildlife photographer? Do you shoot much else?

Thank you so much for detailed reply Derelict. It’s very helpful.

So I had 2 days shooting this weekend I wanted to try both Richmond Park and the New Forest to see which I preferred. I found them VERY different.
I liked Richmond in the morning, I got there before it opened so was the first car in. I didn’t realise it was closed over night until I arrived. I would have preferred it if I could have got in earlier and been ready for sunrise! After a couple of hours it got very busy. I stayed until about 3pm so obviously not that put off by the crowds. I will defiantly go back.

I liked the New Forest too, I didn’t come back with any keepers though. I arrived well before sunrise, found somewhere to park up and walked off in to the mist... It took a while for me to see any deer. They saw me well before I saw them. I tried to carefully follow but they went away! I tried to take a long way round where I thought they were going but they still saw me and went another way. I tried hiding under a tree for a couple of hours hoping they would pass but they never. Still it was really cool to see them. I really want to try and photograph them in the forest again. I think it would be a super rewarding challenge to get a couple of photos of the Deer there.

I now need to do some research in stalking Deer...

Thanks again for all the encouraging replies!

Regards

Leigh

[muldonach]

Originally Posted by Leighgregory

....... It took a while for me to see any deer. They saw me well before I saw them. I tried to carefully follow but they went away! I tried to take a long way round where I thought they were going but they still saw me and went another way. ...........

I now need to do some research in stalking Deer...

Leigh

Without wishing to have a go at any one person I wonder if people realise just how disturbing to the deer this sort of behaviour is? You have moved a bunch of deer on three times in a morning - whilst they are moving away from you they are not resting, feeding or cudding and have been pushed out of an area they had selected into one that is obviously not thier first choice.

Taking photographs is not harmless if it results in a stressed population and we should perhaps bear in mind that wild animals do best in peace and quiet.

Regards
mac

[Leighgregory]

Hey good point muldonach, I've never thought of it like that before! Maybe I SHOULD stick to parks?

There must be a way of observing wild animals without disturbing them? Is this the case when wildlife programmes are filmed?

Regards

Leigh

[Deer Stalker]

Hi Leigh.

Regarding the New Forest.

You can stick to the tracks with out majorly disturbing them. If they've run on, don't follow them, they know where you are & you'll just push them on further, as you found out.

I mention a couple of places on the Forest in this thread, posts #6 & #12.

New Forest help please

[derelict]

Originally Posted by Leighgregory

Hey Maybe I SHOULD stick to parks?

There must be a way of observing wild animals without disturbing them? Is this the case when wildlife programmes are filmed?

Leigh -
A reason I suggested Bushy Park - the animals there are even more habituated to people than those at Richmond Park ... a good place to get a feel without losing the animals forever through one faux pas (a strong consideration if you've travelled from Swindon!) I've just answered another thread with "courtesy counts for a great deal with park deer". In that regard the rut is actually an easier time as it counts for rather less than usual...

The other thing Bushy will give you an insight into is working with animals in the vicinity of ... other people. Come the rut you certainly won't be on your ownsome... Far and away the most unpredictable part of the whole scenario ... stags will bellow, hinds will be herded and frustrated males will spar with one another but you never know when someone will let their dog run loose ...

Ideally what you need with deer is time. With wild deer it's essential. Wildlife films take forever - a 10 minute film on New Forest Fallow Deer by Simon King took the best part of 3 days to shoot at a known location (and it was his second attempt at making a Fallow Deer film in those parts). Given the limited time you have till October I'd say that Bushy Park is the place to try out, then move on to the wider spaces of Richmond (just across the river) but do join the WAB party in the New Forest.


Muldonach - from what you say it would be a pleasure for the deer to have you in the park - but don't come at weekends because what you will see will leave you in a state of utter nervous prostration - and apologies if you already know this! I said recently to the parks police that the only reason I visit the park at weekends was to remind myself that the fallow bucks weren't "my" deer but had to be shared with the rest of humanity come what may, and was pleasantly surprised to find that they felt much the same about the park in general!

[Ron C]

Today my wife and I made a short morning visit to Bushy Park , one of many through the year, in the rare Sunday sun that had attracted many, the Dianna car park was packed.
There seems to be less Red Deer stags than last year and I’ve not seen the two big guys in the male groups which were at the Hampton hill end of the park this spring,
was there a heavy cull?
Also I’ve not seen the big Fallow the herd seems to be very thinned out.

In the link below, is one of my short films on the deer of bushy park 2007 rut.

MobileMe Gallery

[Leighgregory]

Thanks for all your comments. I really appreciate all the input and suggestions. I tried Dyrham park last weekend, (my 1st time photographing deer). They were not at all bothered by onlookers. I will defiantly have a look at Bushy Park too.

Is it acceptable to sit in a small pop up hide? Maybe this way the deer wouldn’t get spooked at all? I would very much still like to go on the WAB meet planned for October but I feel as though this would be frowned? Is this acceptable?

Please forgive my ignorance as I’ve only just started to watch wildlife and am very keen to play by the rules.

Thanks again for all the input.

Regards

Leigh

[rlchew]

Hi Leigh

Welcome to WAB.

Hopefully you have already realised one of the benefits of signing up .... you ask a question and get lots of helpful and friendly advice .

There is some more information here in a message thread that I started as I wanted answers to the same question as you.

Red Deer rut

Good luck with the deer photography .

Richard

[derelict]

Originally Posted by Leighgregory

Is it acceptable to sit in a small pop up hide? Maybe this way the deer wouldn’t get spooked at all?

During the Red Deer rut RP can look like a NATO exercise with people in various sorts of camouflage gear setting up gun emplacements or walking around with what appear to be rocket launchers or bazookas plus the occasional TV presenter and TV crew, though surely they've got enough library footage by now? The deer know the ground and they know people so I suspect they regard such things with mild bemusement and carry on with the imperative of the rut. In short you can use one but you'll have to carry it, you'll be less mobile and you'll be more at the mercy of wannabe cellphone Attenboroughs either wandering into your field of vision or spooking the hinds by getting too close. Best avoided by the "get there early" principle! Weekdays are best...

[muldonach]

Originally Posted by Leighgregory

........ Maybe I SHOULD stick to parks?

There must be a way of observing wild animals without disturbing them? Is this the case when wildlife programmes are filmed?

Regards

Leigh

Sure - in essence and to state the obvious you need to be aware of the animal or without it being aware of you OR with its acceptance of your presence.

sticking with deer - if you want to work with the wild ones then get to know a patch of ground wihich contains deer - you obviously know one. Comments below are based entirely on wild roe.

Get on to the ground early and sit still - give the distubance caused by your arrival time to settle down. Get yourself well sorted out with camouflage clothing and make sure you have hands covered and wear a hat - a lot of people wear a faceveil (scrim scarf is good). Try not to wash the outer clothing unless you really have to and if you do then rinse it very well or preferably leave it out in the rain for a while (biological powders can cause a UV bloom visible to wildlife).

Ignore any advice about not washing your body - human scent (perfumed or not) will be instantly picked up by any deer that crosses a wind or foot scent.

Make sure you have a pair of binoculars and glass the area upwind and to the sides of you to death. Keep hand and head movements slow, a longer than normal stick or a camera monopod is excellent for steadying binoculars. Once you are convinced that there is nothing to see you then move up or across the wind, before you move pick your next stopping point and move slowly and quietly. Keep an eye open behind you as well - it is by no means unknown for a deer to step out of cover and watch you go away having stayed frozen as you blundered past.

If you have an area used by deer then get to the downwind side well before the deer are due and SIT STILL. Use a hide if you want but it is really not necessary with deer who detect form very poorly but detect movement very well indeed.

When you spot a deer then assess the situation and make a realistic assessment as to whether or not you can get closer without spooking it - if it is not on then give it away or retreat and make an approach from another more favourable direction, bear in mind that deer, especially females are seldom completely alone. If the deer is moving towards you then get down and comfortable and let it come, if you cannot retreat then sit or lie down and watch the beast - that after all is what you came for.

When you find yourself detected - deer already spotted you - then freeze, be aware that they will often put their heads down, grab a bite and look back at you - any movement will be fatal. Once it puts its head down and starts to feed properly you can decide where to move to, only move when its head is down or you definitely cannot be seen.

When you move a deer on then give it best and leave it alone - if you are really good and ready with the camera then a sharp whistle or bark will often cause a running deer to slam on the brakes and look back in astonishment. If you stand still it may start to move back towards you but will circle until it gets your scent. Don't follow it up - it is already aware of your presence and your chances of success are low indeed.

Take the weather into account - good weather will see the deer out early enjoying the sunshine - wind and rain will see them in little shelter pockets.

Best of luck and post some photos

Regards
Mac

[Leighgregory]

Richard, thanks for the link, I will study it and make necessary notes. Yes I am very pleased I found this site, its proving to be an excellent place to find some 1st class advice from experienced wildlife enthusiasts.

Darelict thanks for your reply. I have decided to try and avoid RP for the reasons you pointed out. Although I guess I would be guaranteed to see some action.

Mac, Thank you very much for taking the time to reply in such detail. It’s very helpful and must have taken a lot of trips to identify these skills. I’m very grateful for you sharing your knowledge with me. I feel really bad about Sunday’s experience, I didn’t realise the effect I was having on the deer could be so disruptive. I defiantly don’t want to disrupt their normal behaviour.

I was wearing a camouflage jacket with hood but my hands and legs were not camouflaged. I will invest in more camouflage. I think now that I have found a place they live in arriving early and staying put sounds like a good plan. I have a 70 – 200mm lens with a 1.4 teleconverter on a digital body so my reach is quite good. I know you always want more reach when photographing wildlife but it’s not something I can afford at the moment!

If I can work out how to post a photo ill share some...

Thanks again for all the advice.

Regards

Leigh

[Leighgregory]

I've worked it out... I think!

Here are 2 photos from my collection so far.

Regards

Leigh

[muldonach]

nice ones leigh - how do you like this little chap?

Cheers
Mac

[Leighgregory]

Hey great timing! You must have been pretty close?

Thanks for showing me.

Leigh

[Leighgregory]

Ron C, I've just had a look at you video. Thats some really good footage, lovely colours in the backgrounds too! Was it all filmed at Bushy Park this weekend?

Regards

Leigh

[Ron C]

Hi Leighgregory

Sunday was a stills camera day with my wife.
That video was done last autumn, October early morning, I was first in the car park, the only shot not from BP is the Red Kite.

Most taken with a 300mm f4Nikon lens on the video-cam and a f1.6 Canon lens
When the ferns change to the various shads of red you can get some great shots, get there early if you go, you won’t need a hide or camo at BP, when the sun is just over the tree line the autumn ferns really light up.

If you wanted some of the wild Chiltern Fallows that would need some kind of cover and a long wait.

RP is over twice the size of BP and has better opportunities, again get there early as pos, because come mid day it’s like Piccadilly Circus.

Link below shows a better size video linked from part of my web site
Deer in Autumn

[Leighgregory]

Thanks for the reply Ron.

I don’t know too much about videography, a Nikon 300f4 (to me) sounds like a fixed prime lens for an SLR. (Probably my next purchase...)

I love to colours in the backgrounds on your video, it makes the video very interesting. The light from the "golden hour" is making it all look incredibly inviting!

Thanks again for your reply!

Regards

Leigh

[Ron C]

Leigh
You are right in that the 300mm lens is for a film SLR I can fit any manual Nikon lens on my cam with a specially made adaptor I have by fitting these lenses on the cam I get a focal length 7.2 times, ie 300mm x 7.2 = 2160mm.

Although not the rut here is another short video made earlier this year May/June most was shot in Bushy Park though the opening shot of female reds was taken at RP and the Hare footage taken in the Chilterns.

It may take a little time to load as it around 55MB.
Video at link below
Movie.

[derelict]

Originally Posted by Leighgregory

Darelict thanks for your reply. I have decided to try and avoid RP for the reasons you pointed out. Although I guess I would be guaranteed to see some action.
Leigh

Don't avoid it altogether! Bear in mind I'm expressing my opinion as a someone whose off-piste activities get severely disrupted by the also-rans (they make following the Fallow Deer buildup - an evening activity - more exciting, but for the entirely the wrong reasons.) If you want the photographer's perspective you should listen to the experienced photographers!

I heard my first muted bellow of the autumn yesterday evening but the senior herd is still together and looking in very fine condition. According to my notes the breakup of the herd wqas under way by 12th September last year... so it's imminent.

I haven't been over to Bushy since July; the impression I had then was that the Red Deer and Fallow Deer antlers were developing faster/better than any in RP (though there is one stag at RP whose antlers come close to being taller than he is!) If I was being cynical I'd put it down to the propensity of BP visitors for sharing their picnics with the deer. In the case of the fallow bucks the current BP ones are physically larger than the RP ones with (to my eye anyway) better head and lower jaw conformation. They did bring in a big fallow buck from another herd to Richmond to beef up the herd a bit but tragically he got killed just days after the end of the spring cull this year so 'alpha male' is open house this year.

I did suggest that the buck from Greenwich Park (purchased at the same time) be brought in to keep up the good work but I've seen no signs of it happening. Maybe next year... If anyone else feels like suggesting it to the Parks people please do!