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19-11-2007, 08:10 PM
| | New Member | | Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10
| |  Floodlight threat in Warwickshire village
I live in a small rural village outside Warwick, called Claverdon.
We are lucky in having no street lights....very rare i believe!
This is excellent for local wildlife, especially nocturnal animals together with amateur astromoners or just star gazers. However, there are plans afoot for the local tennis court to erect 6.7meter tall floodlights. Please help us in our campaign to stop this!
....light pollution is a major concern....
....Its not very 'green' is it!
....the area is a conservation area....
....the tennis courts are grossly underused in the daytime anyway........
....owls and bats may be disturbed..... I would love to know more about how exactly they will be affected!
....the lighting posts themselves will be an eyesore for anyone visiting the village and will inflict upon the natural scenery....
To me this is highly alarming so any advice/ help would be extremely helpful in our campaign..... |
19-11-2007, 09:10 PM
|  | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 3,132
| | | Re: Floodlight threat in Warwickshire village
There is a possibility it could be positive for bat's as the lights will attract insects for them to hunt over the court's. As for owl's i wouldnt see it causing much problem to them. I understand why you wouldnt want these lights though. Would they be on all night?
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19-11-2007, 11:05 PM
| | New Member | | Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10
| | | Re: Floodlight threat in Warwickshire village
Curious response....
Iv been scanning the web tonight for literature and have yet to find anything solid that would support what you're saying! Indeed most of the literature highly supports my thoughts that artificial lighting will be detrimental to the overall health of bats and owls! |
20-11-2007, 01:37 AM
|  | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: 1 hanging basket spotted in Kiddy-could we be on to winner
Posts: 3,253
| | | Re: Floodlight threat in Warwickshire village
I think England grows or emits more lighting needlessly by around 10% a year. All kept going by power stations. Too me thats a growing waste of power. I have slept in a few sleepy villages wondering why at 2am the lights are still on whilst every ones in the land of nod  I can hark back to lights out at 12 when times where more quiet peaceful and less violent. I wish we could return back to those days. But i think i'm alone sadly to returning to Darkness returning to neighbours and community but we have support officers now so alls well 
By the way did you watch Nature Of Btitain? The street lights have the Robins bless them up singing at midnight. *Scratches head in bewilderment*
Everything seems to be going up one i wish would come down!!!
As you can tell i'm a happy bunny 
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Last edited by Jez; 20-11-2007 at 01:48 AM.
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20-11-2007, 04:36 AM
| | Officer of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: May 2007 Location: Caversham, Reading, Berks.
Posts: 534
| | | Re: Floodlight threat in Warwickshire village
Hi,
I think street lights are on later at night now to make the areas feel safer, yes we have "community Police" but I think they go home at 6-00pm, but not to worry, we also have the plastic yellow signs saying "Police patrol this area" , if they did you'd see them and wouldn't need the signs to tell you.
The tennis court lights I doubt would be on after 11-00pm, and if any animal was disturbed by them they'd only move out of the light a bit.
Max.
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20-11-2007, 06:05 AM
| | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: 1 hanging basket spotted in Kiddy-could we be on to winner
Posts: 3,253
| | | Re: Floodlight threat in Warwickshire village
Quote:
Originally Posted by m1.carson  Hi,
I think street lights are on later at night now to make the areas feel safer, yes we have "community Police" but I think they go home at 6-00pm, but not to worry, we also have the plastic yellow signs saying "Police patrol this area" , if they did you'd see them and wouldn't need the signs to tell you.
The tennis court lights I doubt would be on after 11-00pm, and if any animal was disturbed by them they'd only move out of the light a bit.
Max. | We may feel safer but i ask are we safer? All the better to see you with said The Big Bad Wolf.
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20-11-2007, 09:17 AM
|  | Active Member | | Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 59
| | | Re: Floodlight threat in Warwickshire village
I was reading a different thread a few days ago where someone mentioned the 'Good old days' when lights would go out at night and night crimes were a lot less. I think that streetlights and house outside lights do help those so inclined to take from others. I have lived in a city and extremely rural and in my experience the crime rate soars the more lights are around. Must make their job a lot easier if they can see what they are doing. In rural villages no one is out beyond about 11 pm. other than those going somewhere, or coming home, in their car. There is nothing else to do. So for a village to have street lights all night long is ridiculous. Unless of course it is a large village with a place of employment that has staff coming and going all night.
If these floodlights are going to burn when not in use then that is a waste of energy resource and something should definitely be done about it. I would hate to be subjected to floodlights at night. I like to look at the stars, any kind of light nearby makes that very difficult.
Hope you can find a way to stop the light pollution.  |
20-11-2007, 09:28 AM
| | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 3,132
| | | Re: Floodlight threat in Warwickshire village
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laura J Curious response....
Iv been scanning the web tonight for literature and have yet to find anything solid that would support what you're saying! Indeed most of the literature highly supports my thoughts that artificial lighting will be detrimental to the overall health of bats and owls! | http://www.cababstractsplus.org/goog...No=20053190425
An australian study on bats and light. Show its positive's.
It can be negative to slower flying species on a bigger scale than a tennis court.
Although it is well know that putting lighting on a building that is used as a roost can cause damage to bat population's. Unless it was on a bigger scale than a tennis court i carnt see it affecting local bats, And chance's are most owl's wouldnt hunt on a court and be affected.
However as i said from a light pollution, and negative impact on the local community, the waste of energy they use up i totally agree with you, and think they are pretty needless.
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Last edited by Dogghound; 20-11-2007 at 09:32 AM.
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20-11-2007, 09:45 AM
|  | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Leicestershire
Posts: 4,243
| | | Re: Floodlight threat in Warwickshire village
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzy I have lived in a city and extremely rural and in my experience the crime rate soars the more lights are around. | there are obviously more lights in cities and a higher crime rate, but I don't think you can conclude from this that the one causes the other. 
Are they proposing to leave the floodlights on permanently? This strikes me as unlikely, especially if the court is owned by a club.
Matt
Last edited by matt_xyz; 20-11-2007 at 09:59 AM.
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20-11-2007, 09:57 AM
|  | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: West Molesey, Surrey
Posts: 1,458
| | | Re: Floodlight threat in Warwickshire village
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laura J Curious response....
Iv been scanning the web tonight for literature and have yet to find anything solid that would support what you're saying! Indeed most of the literature highly supports my thoughts that artificial lighting will be detrimental to the overall health of bats and owls! | Noctules have been reported actively hunting around floodlights, whilst one or two others hunt around the periphery of the lit area.
Cheers,
Adam |
20-11-2007, 10:05 AM
| | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: West Molesey, Surrey
Posts: 1,458
| | | Re: Floodlight threat in Warwickshire village
Hi Laura,
Apologies for the long response, but much of this info comes from some very respected names in the world of bats.
PART 1
Noctules will fly over floodlit areas in London exploiting chafers attracted to light, but they are generally flying above the light cone. I have watched lesser horsehoes take moths from a mercury vapour lamp, pipistrelles and serotines are known to do the same. Bat retinal structures vary across the species, which in turn, may affect their ability to cope with varying light intensity.
It is the Myotis and Plecotus species that we are particularly concerned about and I have given Dave the figures showing the decline of Daubenton's bat in our region (which will not be published until next year and bucks the national trend). I have seen a single Daubenton's bat habituate to monochromatic lighting below a certain level, but not to broad spectrum white lighting.I have never, ever found Natterer's bat in an area where there is lighting.
In short it is the type of lighting, it's luminous intensity, the location of the light spillage (onto river corridors etc) and diffuse range of light sources which may cause problems for bats, depending on the species.This is borne out by research, but the conclusions are usually: that bats avoid light to avoid their predators. This of course must play a part but the weakness is that it assumes that predators cannot see in the dark.
A contribution to the second part of your question, most of which you are probably aware : there has been guidance from government on mitigation for lighting over sensitive areas particularly AONB's. Alan Outen wrote this guidance and it was his case studies that appeared on the former DETR (Department of the Environment Transport and Regions) website.
Jenny Jones has written the guidance (English Nature 2000) applied to SSSI's and other statutory desinated sites.The Environment Agency use guidance of 'less <2lux spillage onto the water course'. Ealing Council website has some very sensible lighting guidance apropos the Clean Neighbourhoods Act. Google Rich and Loncore for details of the American Symposium on lighting now published and available on amazon.
PART 2
I would like briefly to comment on the correspondence below with a 'health warning' of my own.
Dave is of course right that the bats and lighting issue is unresolved and we need some convincing data - but in the meantime we don't and I would like to support the use of the precautionary principle by applying the best knowledge that we have access to at any one time - and Alison's recent London Naturalist paper is a very useful reference for this. Of course, even well-collected data from experimental studies can be overturned later by other studies that expose unforseen methological flaws or 'special case' scenarios. So, one might never choose to act until there have been several robust studies and a review paper with a meta-analysis of those to check that they really all do agree. Within the realms of ecological research, and the current rate of decline of some species, this could well be a long time after the metaphorical horse has bolted.
The effects of lighting are certainly not confined to their effects (real or imagined) on bats, and they may influence the behaviour/ecology of any other nocturnal animals (vertebrate or invertebrate), or indeed diurnal animals confused about when night actually begins or ends, or indeed the growth of plants. The perturbing effect of lighting on many night-flying insects (e.g. moths) is pretty easy to demonstrate and it is reasonable to suggest that being forced to divert course to fly around a light and being exposed to predation and additional energy costs as an alternative to finding a mate or feeding is likely to be a negative effect for those individuals involved. Repeat on a large scale and you get a larger scale effect that might affect species at a population level. For predators of those species there may well be an effect on prey distribution .... and so on.
Returning to bats - individuals or species that appear to be tolerant to lighting and feed on insects around lights may still be losing out. One must not make the mistake of assuming that just because an animal is feeding in a particular location it is 'happy' to do so - it may simply have no (or few) alternatives and is faced with either feeding there (perhaps with added risk of predation or added competition from other bats etc.) or suffering even greater energy losses by trying to feed on a depleted prey population in darkness where it is safer. This would be especially so if preferred prey species were drawn from the surrounding area into the lit area.
My health warning is therefore this, just because a species is observed exploiting a habitat or situation it does not mean that it is in a good state. Years ago my attention was drawn to the example of the Hawaiian goose - found confined to upland areas in which conservationists therefore actively conserved for them. However, disappointingly, the conserved populations were not sustainable, they required constant additions from captive breeding. Further studies revealed the geese to be birds of the lowland coastal areas, from which they had been displaced by human occupation. Once it was realised that they were in suboptimal habitat, their decline was easy to understand. Obviously this is a potted summary, and doubtless one can find flaws with the analogy - but hopefully it makes my point.
PART3
As a novice doing the Daubenton survey in Lewisham for the first time last year, I can only say that my bats were perfectly happy catching the insects that clustered around a lamp on a bridge over the stream. Very adaptable, our inner urban wildlife!
PART 4
Since 1995 there has been a NBMP (National Bat Monitoring Program) which is undertaken by volunteers with the data being analysed by statisticians. The NBMP has shown a substantial London decline in the Daubenton's bat, a Myotis species that requires dark river corridors, as most batworkers know.
We designate rivers as corridors for wildlife but it is a process of ‘designate and forget’. We never actively manage them as dark corridors for birds and mammal movement or retain any of the original vegetation in our new schemes which they or their insect prey find useful.
It is not necessarily the lighting per se which is affecting bat species but the sheer totality of lighting from a diffuse number of sources along with broad spectrum lighting which is replacing the monochromatic low pressure sodium lighting. During a recent survey, lighting on a footpath at Epping Forest SSSI measured 250 lux, , which is the same lux level as my living room. (No, I don’t live in a cave).
Some bat detectors now record lighting levels and many of us carry separate spot or logging light meters. The Environment Agency makes recommendations on the levels of light spillage onto water courses from bridge and pathway lighting.
[b]
PART 5
I'm firmly against light pollution, which has spoiled the tranquility of many of the larger open spaces in London, but I council caution over accepting the evidence of a direct effect of light pollution on bat numbers.
The issue is one of basic methodology. It's quite difficult to establish cause and effect in field ecology. There are two significant problems:
1. Many changes are over time, and all manner of other things also change over time. For example, it's unlikely that mobile phone masts have an adverse effect on bat numbers, but they will surely show a statistically significant correlation.
2. Other evidence comes from spatial comparisons - well lit sites with fewer bats than dark ones. Again, any two sites will differ in many other features, including those that could influence food availability for bats for example. There is also a risk here of selecting the evidence (often subconsciously through lack of interest in places that seem not to fit the preconception). Even in scientific papers there is a well-known "file drawer problem" whereby the uninteresting negative results are not so interesting to the journals.
The solution to these two problems is an experimental approach, but of course it's not easy to experiment with lighting and bat numbers. Long-term monitoring of bat numbers, however, could provide the accidental experiments that we need. By chance, some such monitoring sites will have lighting introduced, whereas others continue dark, and act as "control" sites for the "experimental" introduction of lighting. Of course a large number of monitoring sites is needed for this to be successful, and this is a good area for "citizen science".
The value of such an approach is illustrated by the very effective bird monitoring schemes run over many years by the BTO. The results have increasingly been used for accidental experimentation.
In my view we do not yet have confidence on the bat story, however convincing is the theoretical reasoning. We can apply the precautionary principle, but there's always a risk there of losing it when a good study comes along! It's time that our bat friends encouraged monitoring along the lines of the excellent BBS and does anyone know of published work that meets the requirements of experiment vs control as well as adequate replication? |
20-11-2007, 10:10 AM
| | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: West Molesey, Surrey
Posts: 1,458
| | | Re: Floodlight threat in Warwickshire village
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laura J I live in a small rural village outside Warwick, called Claverdon.
We are lucky in having no street lights....very rare i believe!
This is excellent for local wildlife, especially nocturnal animals together with amateur astromoners or just star gazers. However, there are plans afoot for the local tennis court to erect 6.7meter tall floodlights. Please help us in our campaign to stop this!
....light pollution is a major concern....
....Its not very 'green' is it!
....the area is a conservation area....
....the tennis courts are grossly underused in the daytime anyway........
....owls and bats may be disturbed..... I would love to know more about how exactly they will be affected!
....the lighting posts themselves will be an eyesore for anyone visiting the village and will inflict upon the natural scenery....
To me this is highly alarming so any advice/ help would be extremely helpful in our campaign..... | You can always ask to make sure that an Ecological Impact Assessment survey has been carried out. These are not the same as an Environmental Impact Assessment and are now compulsory on developments. Not quite sure how it would stand on this instance but if it is a local council issue they are obliged to take wildlife into consideration on all projects, particularly those requiring planning permission, under section 40 of the NERC Act (Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act)
Cheers,
Adam |
20-11-2007, 10:11 AM
| | Active Member | | Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 59
| | | Re: Floodlight threat in Warwickshire village
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_xyz there are obviously more lights in cities and a higher crime rate, but I don't think you can conclude from this that the one causes the other.
Are they proposing to leave the floodlights on permanently? This strikes me as unlikely, especially if the court is owned by a club.
Matt | I agree it cannot be concluded that lights on at night causes crime, but what I do believe is so - that having lights on at night definitely makes the job easier. When it is pitch black at night a crime is harder to do, as lights ie a torch is needed, which is easily seen and will alert others of an intruder in the vicinity.
No one likes getting caught. |
20-11-2007, 10:22 AM
| | Active Member | | Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 59
| | | Re: Floodlight threat in Warwickshire village
I love bats!
I also don't like light pollution!
I watch bats go around my house at night. The street light just out side the house on the lane must encourage them. The street lamp has always irritated me but the bats fascinate me. Does the evidence of bats and lights mean that the bats visiting my area may disappear if the light goes off at 11 pm? |
20-11-2007, 10:24 AM
|  | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Little village called Chedworth
Posts: 4,784
| | | Re: Floodlight threat in Warwickshire village
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Cheeseman You can always ask to make sure that an Ecological Impact Assessment survey has been carried out. These are not the same as an Environmental Impact Assessment and are now compulsory on developments. Not quite sure how it would stand on this instance but if it is a local council issue they are obliged to take wildlife into consideration on all projects, particularly those requiring planning permission, under section 40 of the NERC Act (Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act)
Cheers,
Adam | I agree with this. There absolutely should be an EcIA especially if near potential bat roost sites (mature trees or buildings).
The village I grew up in is mostly unlit and I like it that way but the tennis courts are lit at night but aren't actually used an awful lot in the in winter so it doesn't have much impact at all either on the wildlife (as far as I can tell) or on the local people....
Also the Bat conservation Trust have just released this: http://www.bats.org.uk/news_events/d...nalversion.pdf
Which might help. |
20-11-2007, 10:25 AM
| | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 3,132
| | | Re: Floodlight threat in Warwickshire village
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzy I love bats!
I also don't like light pollution!
I watch bats go around my house at night. The street light just out side the house on the lane must encourage them. The street lamp has always irritated me but the bats fascinate me. Does the evidence of bats and lights mean that the bats visiting my area may disappear if the light goes off at 11 pm? | Unlikely to totally disappear, but the lights attract the insects if the light goes off the inscets will dispears into the local area fields, woods etc as will the bats after them.
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20-11-2007, 10:30 AM
| | Active Member | | Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 59
| | | Re: Floodlight threat in Warwickshire village
What time do bats stay up- till. The ones I watch come out a dusk and disappear about an hour or two afterwards. Would they have gone home then, or moved territory. They usually only appear on a mild evening.
Maybe I should start a new thread in bats section. |
20-11-2007, 10:34 AM
| | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 3,132
| | | Re: Floodlight threat in Warwickshire village
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzy What time do bats stay up- till. The ones I watch come out a dusk and disappear about an hour or two afterwards. Would they have gone home then, or moved territory. They usually only appear on a mild evening.
Maybe I should start a new thread in bats section. | Depends on species, most bats hunt all night until it starts getting light. Dawn and dusk show a peak in activity, Its likely that the bat's you see move area's they often have several favourite hunting grounds they visit in the night.
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Teaching a child not to step on a caterpillar is as vital to the child as it is to the caterpillar! |
20-11-2007, 10:50 AM
| | Active Member | | Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 59
| | | Re: Floodlight threat in Warwickshire village
Thanks Dogghound!
I must find out more about them... sparked off my interest |
20-11-2007, 04:10 PM
| | Wild Member | | Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Saddleworth, West Yorkshire
Posts: 124
| | | Re: Floodlight threat in Warwickshire village
good luck I hope they dont construct them!
In my village they are planning on putting up flood lights for the football pitch in the local school which is right next to all the fields where i walk the dog, they are also planning on relocating the school to a different area in afew years which makes it an even stupider thing to waste money on!  |
20-11-2007, 11:57 PM
| | New Member | | Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10
| |  Re: Floodlight threat in Warwickshire village
I really will try and take all comments on board - always good to look around the NIMBY (Not in my back yard) opinions i still have i suppose .... so thanks...
It really annoys me that there were SO many warm summer/autumn days and evenings with sufficient light to play - and NO-one was out playing tennis!! & the vast majority of the locals likely to be affected are not members...or if they are free members (like the village kids) they can be kicked off the courts if a fee paying member turns up (personal experience..Grrr)! I do wonder if they deserve to get a grant to pay for them...id rather see lottery grant money put into a kids tennis club for example...
If animals are likely disturbed i still want to know as i know how lucky we are here! Thanks for comments on EIA type surveys i will look into that!
Also, there is so little crime (at least i think) in the village...maybe due to lack of light...Its also rather cute to see people walking back from the pubs with torches! Shame this will be lost...even if they turn off at 11ish...
Besides the light at night we will still be left with 9 tall and rather ugly posts blotting the scenery....
Sigh.... Of course I also wonder how the village ought to offset the carbon footprint the lights will leave... | |
