Prawns and Lobsters feel pain?

[The Black Rabbit]

On the news this morning, and as investigated by QUB.
Do lobsters, prawns and other invertebrates feel pain?
Interesting stuff - may make you think twice before choosing your lobster in the next fancy restaurant you're in. (Oh I wish!)

Click HERE for the new scientist link.

Doug

[naturelover]

i have always said cold water animals what ever,must feel pain,i have always been against prawns,crab in fact lots of creatures that are chucked in boiling water while still alive,lots also screem so what dose that tell you,PAIN.

[The Black Rabbit]

Originally Posted by naturelover

i have always said cold water animals what ever,must feel pain,i have always been against prawns,crab in fact lots of creatures that are chucked in boiling water while still alive,lots also screem so what dose that tell you,PAIN.

You may be right Naturelover! However the popular scientific consenus was always that whilst vertebrates experience 'pain', invertebrates (including crutaceans like prawns and lobsters) probably do not, or nothing like the 'pain' we (as higher vertebrates) experience.

Does this mean crustaceans will now be included in the animal welfare act?
Probably not, but if they are, that might well have far-reaching consequences for an awful lot of people, trade and industry.

[zharca]

I don't see how any animal could function without a pain response to tell it when it was being damaged?

Isn't pain a signal "I'm being hurt, move my leg/paw/flipper/fin/tentacle out of the way"? It doesn't make sense to think that any creature could do without it as a way to keep out of trouble.

And I stopped eating crab and lobster a long time ago because I'm very uneasy about the ways in which they're cooked.

[Hobjob]

Originally Posted by naturelover

i have always said cold water animals what ever,must feel pain,i have always been against prawns,crab in fact lots of creatures that are chucked in boiling water while still alive,lots also screem so what dose that tell you,PAIN.

I haven't googled this, but seem to remember hearing (no doubt
on radio 4) that the screaming was not really screaming but
escape of air from the carapace / shell. They don't have
vocal cords to scream with. IIRC, if you bring them to the boil,
rather than chuck them in boiling water, then you don't hear this.

[naturelover]

what ever they do to the poor things i still dont like it,its just for our pleasue not nesasary.

[monkey]

This topic brought back memories of my childhood watching my gran cooking fresh elvers caught in the river severn and then eating them with bread and butter. She said it was delicious but I could never bring myself to try them. They changed colour from transparent with black eyes to dark grey when cooked and looked revolting!

[Wightman]

Originally Posted by zharca

I don't see how any animal could function without a pain response to tell it when it was being damaged?

Isn't pain a signal "I'm being hurt, move my leg/paw/flipper/fin/tentacle out of the way"? It doesn't make sense to think that any creature could do without it as a way to keep out of trouble.

And I stopped eating crab and lobster a long time ago because I'm very uneasy about the ways in which they're cooked.

Totally agree, I can't understand how anyone can think otherwise, maybe it's just a means of people (the fishing industry etc) justifying themselves?

[naturelover]

i too remember my nan buying winkles ready cooked though,and i ate them then being a kid didnt know any better,we yoused to take his hat off then with a pin wiggle him out,yuck makes me feel quite ill just thinking about it.

[Wightman]

I get a touch annoyed with this argument about animals not feeling pain, as zharca already posted surely if you were for example a fish and a bigger fish took a bite out of you, you'd feel it? why people keep up this archaic nonsense is beyond me.

[Venger]

Quotes from the net:

"The general consensus is freezing it first, before putting it into boiling water is the kindest, and fastest way to kill this crustacean. (About 15 seconds according to experimental evidence). Apparently the poor creature never wakes up from its frozen doze, and in its senseless immobile state, hopefully neither knows or cares what happens to it in the pot."



"Crayfish and crabs should make their way to the plate by a quiet descent into frozen sleep, not by being boiled alive.

That's according to the RSPCA's new guidelines on the humane killing of crabs, crayfish and other crustaceans.

RSPCA president Hugh Wirth said the society used to recommend that crustaceans be immersed in ice slurry to chill them and render them insensible to pain.

For most species, this caused death by osmotic shock - when an animal's cells burst as they absorb too much water.

Dr Wirth said some restaurateurs ignored the ice slurry method because diners did not like the taste and cooks continued to plunge live crustaceans into boiling water.

The new guidelines say crustaceans should be chilled in a refrigerator or freezer, then killed by splitting or spiking to destroy the nerve centres."

"If you chuck a live crustacean into a boiling pot of water, they feel that and you are killing them cruelly," Dr Wirth said. "While there are still traditionalists, I think this will get rid of the last resistance."

[The Black Rabbit]

Originally Posted by Wightman

I get a touch annoyed with this argument about animals not feeling pain, as zharca already posted surely if you were for example a fish and a bigger fish took a bite out of you, you'd feel it? why people keep up this archaic nonsense is beyond me.

It all depend on your definition of pain, Zharca and Wightman. Its quite complicated really.
As far as I was aware (and when I was studying in the subject) most biologists / zoologists are of the scientific opinion that an invertebrates sense of 'pain' is so far removed from a vertebrates sense of 'pain' (completely different nervous systems / sensory organs etc...) that comparisons were pointless and nonsenical.

This (new) research could possibly mean that the 'are' highlighted above, would become a 'were', and scientific consensus on the subject might possibly alter.

The closest I can get to the current consensus (but like I said, this might well change now), in laymans terms I spose, is that whilst a vertebrate may feel 'pain' (like us), if it could talk it might say:
"Yow - that HURT"!
invertebrates, if they could talk, might undergo a completely different experience and might say:
"Something not right. Move away from that thing".

Like I said, all to do with one's definition of pain - a very personal definition, even between members of the same family of humans!

Plenty of debate on either side of this one.
There are some scientists who will say, one can argue that lobsters do not feel 'pain', as long as you are prepared to also say that crabs can't 'see' (as their visual organs are so different to higher vertebrates visual organs as to render a comparison futile.

There are some scientists who, on the other hand, will say, the findings of this latest research does not prove anything. Acetic acid was placed on the prawns antennae and for 5 minutes the prawns attempted, vigorously to remove the 'irritant' in the experiment, the same sort of reaction as one would expect in higher vertebrates that certainly feel 'pain', and possibly comparisons can be made now.
These scientists (refuting the research) would have us believe that that the prawns 'computed' that 'something was not right' and were simply cleaning their antennae, undergoing an instinctive reaction to remain healthy and functioning, rather than undergoing distress (as we would understand).

Not easy this (in my opinion).
We are comparing what effectively is an alien (in terms of comparable sensory perception) to our own bodies and feelings.
I guess the research and debates will run and run.



ps Venger - regarding your comment on "diners and ice slurry" -yes... I think most chefs will tell you (rightly or wrongly - I don't know) that Lobsters etc... taste much better when boiled directly rather than frozen first. I'm afraid I don't have any experience to draw on regarding that matter, and I suppose they know what they're talking about (more than me anyway!). I hope its not about the 'theatre' of the experience anyway.

[Wightman]

Well put Black Rabbit. I just don't like the "doesn't feel pain, full stop" theory that alot of fishermen (I have alot of angling friends) argue.

[Venger]

Those aren't necessarily my opinions - I just lifted them from articles on the net.

I think 'chilling' wouldn't alter the taste but the 'ice slurry' would (the osmotic shock.)
I'm sure it's happened to any meat that you've frozen and then defrosted - the ice crystals have destroyed cells (as the 'osmotic shock' would, too much water causing the cells to burst) causing the meat to taste a little mushy rather than a firm 'bite'.

[Pink Hippo]

While sea fishing I have caught lobster and crab both of which I cooked and ate myself

While the food was delicious, I have to say that it IS disturbing to see a large crab (yes, it had been chilled first, too) attempting to lift itself from the boiling water and clattering against the side of the pan. Maybe it wasnt cold enough when I put it in, I dont know, but I for one can no longer personally prepare such creatures to eat

If it isnt 'pain' that causes the creatures to behave this way, any human must certainly perceive the reaction as some form of suffering

I am not one for placing sentimentality on the process of catching and preparing animals for food but this experience has certainly altered my thinking on the question of the way such creatures are cooked

[Venger]

A humane death is mainly to stop us feeling bad, as we perceive and translate an animals pain to our own reference of feeling (anthropomorphizing pain to a lesser extent) (did that make sense!?) - nature doesn't always provide a quick and painless death for a prey animal.

You could always go for this:
Crustastun

[PMG]

Put simply I have never eaten lobster and crab only the once many years ago when I was very young .... and on a strictly personal level I would appreciate it if everyone else didn't eat them either - but that isn't going to happen.

Now I'm well aware that if I visited an abattoir I would give up eating any meat overnight as I suspect that humane guidelines arn't always followed rigorously and the fear the animals go thro beforehand floods their systems with adrenaline - likewise the journey cooped up in the waggon - causes stress - so maybe I shouldn't be speaking here at all.

I wish I lived nearer to a butcher in the Lake District who has the best system - the sheep are in the fields beside the shop and are brought into the killing room when required - and the meat (if you are a meat-eater) is delicious. . .

Pauline

[Gaina]

Did anyone see the program on BBC2 (I think it was last year) about Dr Temple Grandin? She's autistic and uses her unique way of experiencing the world to relate to animals and advise the meat industry in America on animal welfare as well as advising people on their pets' behavioural problems.

She's written a very interesting paper on how different animals experience pain and fear and what the difference is between the two in each species (ie, weather they know something hurts, but aren't distressed by it or they know they are in pain and they are upset about being in pain).

You can read the article HERE.

She's also written and excellent book called 'Animals in Translation: Using the Mysteries of Autism to Decode Animal Behaviour'. I picked this up in a bookshop recently and got totally sucked in - I had to force myself to put it down or I would have been there all day!

[Marineboy]

Do prawns and lobsters feel pain?
A long time ago I watched as a lethargic big crab was dropped into a large saucepan of boiling water. It suddenly started to scrabble about and try and climb out. You can not tell me that it did not feel pain.
If a scallop is opened with a sharp knife, the scallop obviously feels something. A worm used for fishing, one moment might seem unbothered about being handled - but once penetrated by the hook turns into a writhing living panic . . . . You can not tell me that they do not feel hurt.
Whether it is pain as we know pain, we may never know, but I am sure it is. Like us, they are living organisms. Just because they might be looked at as a lower life form does not mean they are any less sensitive to something akin to pain.
View all life, however simple, as nothing short of a miracle. Then realise that that miracle is no longer so simple.

[Lincs Yellowbelly]

Let me first say that I don't and have never eaten Crab or Lobster, or any shellfish for that matter

But on the pain thing, I don't know whether a Lobster or Crab will feel pain and the truth is that nobody does for certain. But nature is a painfull exsistance, does a Rabbit feel pain when a Buzzard kills it? does a Pheasant feel pain when caught by a Fox? we are just animals like these, and are doing exactly the same, killing to eat, it's nature just my opinions what many may not agree with

[Gaina]

Originally Posted by Marineboy

Do prawns and lobsters feel pain?
A long time ago I watched as a lethargic big crab was dropped into a large saucepan of boiling water. It suddenly started to scrabble about and try and climb out. You can not tell me that it did not feel pain.
If a scallop is opened with a sharp knife, the scallop obviously feels something. A worm used for fishing, one moment might seem unbothered about being handled - but once penetrated by the hook turns into a writhing living panic . . . . You can not tell me that they do not feel hurt.
Whether it is pain as we know pain, we may never know, but I am sure it is. Like us, they are living organisms. Just because they might be looked at as a lower life form does not mean they are any less sensitive to something akin to pain.
View all life, however simple, as nothing short of a miracle. Then realise that that miracle is no longer so simple.

It's obvious that many non-human animals experience the world in a completely different way to us, but I think - like you - that it's wrong to assume that just because a creature doesn't have the 'wiring' that scientists agree makes US capable of experiencing pain and distress that they are incapable of experiencing at least some of the same feelings.

But by the same token, what distresses animals is often very different to the things that would distress us, so whilst we might not be able to stop them being utilized by humans, we can minimize their distress in the process, which is exactly what Temple Grandin strives to do.

I have to confess that I prefer animals to 99% of the humans I've ever met, but I have come to terms with the fact that some humans will always simply see animals as things to be worn and/or eaten and the best I can do for them is write letters and sign petitions to ensure that they are raised and slaughtered as humanely as possible.

[NuttyMeg]

YouTube - Jeremy Clarkson on F-Word with Gordon Ramsay

no sign of screaming from the lobster although I nearly did when he puts the knife through its head poor thing

[Lincs Yellowbelly]

Originally Posted by Gaina

It's obvious that many non-human animals experience the world in a completely different way to us, but I think - like you - that it's wrong to assume that just because a creature doesn't have the 'wiring' that scientists agree makes US capable of experiencing pain and distress that they are incapable of experiencing at least some of the same feelings.

But by the same token, what distresses animals is often very different to the things that would distress us, so whilst we might not be able to stop them being utilized by humans, we can minimize their distress in the process, which is exactly what Temple Grandin strives to do.

I have to confess that I prefer animals to 99% of the humans I've ever met, but I have come to terms with the fact that some humans will always simply see animals as things to be worn and/or eaten and the best I can do for them is write letters and sign petitions to ensure that they are raised and slaughtered as humanely as possible.

But isn't this how animals see other animals?? are we really any different to any other species on the earth?

[Gaina]

Originally Posted by Lincs Yellowbelly

But isn't this how animals see other animals?? are we really any different to any other species on the earth?

I think we're the worst species to blight this planet (I always feel that when a person is likened to an animal it should be reserved as a compliment and not thrown as an insult) but that's just my personal opinion .

The whole point of discussions like this for me is that whilst we can argue ourselves into ever decreasing circles about meat eating v vegetarianism, we can agree to do the best for the non-human animals we utilize on a daily basis. Some people choose to manifest this by not eating animals or wearing their skins, whilst others who do eat animals can concentrate on giving them the best life and most humane death possible.